[TMO 1.9] Help me become a better Captain ^__^

xiombargdei · 03-08-10, 03:48 AM

Ahoy everyone!

Long time reader, kinda first time poster

I used to play SH4 with low Realistic settings and have fun sinking Carriers and BS. Now SHV is out it gave me a craving for playing a submarine simulation again, but seeing how the game is unfinished, i went back to SHIV with TMO 1.9.

Now i'm roughly on 80% realism (Map updates are ON, external view ON, Manual Targeting ON).

I know TMO changes the convoys behaviour, making them change route, speed and overall being more difficult and track and sink. Well here is my point : Can you, and if yes, how, sink an entire small convoy with TMO 1.9 ?

I can get into position, 1Km away, engine off, periscope depth, and sink the first merchant ship of the convoy with no problem.
This is when it gets hard :
- if i stay where i am and dont move, engine stop, silent running, periscope lowered, DDs come after me and sink me.
- If i deep dive to 50meters or more, ahead 1/3rd to not be detected, the convoy gets too far away from me.
- If i dive to like 30meters, ahead 2/3rd or more, and try to reposition myself, as soon as I get to periscope depth again, DDs come after me right away.

So how do you sink more than one ship in a convoy ? What are your best practices ?

looney · 03-08-10, 05:59 AM

I'm not an expert on fleetboats. But if you look around on these forums there are some great techniques.

I prefer the 90° attack combined with the 0° gyro.

Get info on 1 ship of the convoy (outser corner is easiest).
You only need speed and track! Cause at 0° gyro range is unimportant, cause the torpedo doesn't need to turn.

Input the aob and speed of the target ship into the TDC. Any range will do, but the longer the better.

Now put your scope to the 0° gyro bearing (make a triangle where the length of the 2 legs are: 1 speed of torpedo (46 knots for fast), 2 the speed of the convoy. The angle hypothenusa and the 46kn leg is the lead angle for your scope there are pics of this somewhere here on the forum)).

Now put your scope at that lead angle. Now send a new range to the TDC. This makes a solution for the torpedo (ie sets the gyro).
Now you can fire your torps at the ships (2 per target I recomend). as they cross the scope... Let them come to you instead you to them

There are much better explanations but the above is the basics.

VonGlaus · 03-08-10, 11:38 PM

The destroyers are going to head to where they think the torpedoes were fired from. If you are sitting dead still in the water, you'll be a sitting duck (underwater duck?) right where they are looking.

I usually fire my entire forward spread, dive deep and accelerate under the convoy, then turn onto their track. This sometimes allows me to come back up for another shot.

But then, I've never sunk an entire convoy, unless you count sampans...

magic452 · 03-08-10, 11:47 PM

Looney is right about zero gyro angle shots, very accurate and easy to set up. Check Rockin Robbins Sub sim Skippers Bag of Tricks thread.

To sink more than one ship in a convoy you have to pick your targets carefully, put yourself into a good firing position and shoot fast.
Night or bad weather helps.

I can often set up two zero angle shots at the same time, Mk.14 one on low speed and the other high. Target ships in two different columns.

TDC/PK can be done the same way high and low speed. Time it right and you'll hit both about the same time before they start to slow and turn.

Take your best shoots and run like hell. TMO 1.9 is tough, no more dashing in guns a blazing. More like real life.
Do a runaround and repeat. Learn to shoot from long range 2,500m or more.

By the way GOOD gaming choice, I'll be playing SH4 and TMO for a long time.

Magic

03-09-10, 12:05 AM

One Captian's $0.02...

Planning the approach is everything. One ideal situation is overlapping targets with a 90* shot (zero gyro angle) but this can be very difficult to achieve in operations. Once you have SJ radar it greatly facilitates predicting where your intercept point will be. There are lots of aids and tutorials around here to help out with the geometry of an approach, use them. Put some effort into studying what worked in real-life, most of those techniques will also work in SH4.

Be patient, a premature attack can ruin your day and if you have to eat a counter-attack and some depth charges, better to do so after a kill or two than to fire from a bad approach angle, miss and get attacked anyway.

Failure to plan means planning to fail in any submarine attack and stick to the plan until it is obvious that it won't work then disengage and rethink the approach if still undetected. TMO rewards fore thought and deliberate execution and punishes rashness.

Lastly, practice, practice, practice.

Good Luck and Good Hunting.

Armistead · 03-09-10, 06:36 AM

Yes, you can easily wipe out a small convoy of..let's say 6 ships. The first thing with TMO is to understand how the AI works and attack to your best advantage. Here's a good place to start. You want as many factors in your favor when attacking, because the escorts can easily ruin your set up.
http://www.ducimus.net/sh415/ai.htm

I love the OKane 90 degree attack, but with TMO, your often sensed or picked up and the ships change course and speed so it's hard to attack multiple targets, if any this way..If waters are calm, they will easily see the torps and slow down. If you can do your attack before the escorts come looking, you can use many different methods. I may use OKane for one ship, then use Easy AOB with the stad setting up my other targets.

I use RSRD which reworks convoy layers and convoys can be large, 30-60 ships, but also use this attack with smaller convoys. I stay at a narrow angle go deep and silent coming in between the lead DD and flank. Once the lead DD passes, you have to be careful not to fall into the sonar cone of a flank escort. Course your deep, so you'll have to pass on the ships up from, but that's OK. Come up and shoot the ships towards the rear of the convoy and haul arse, going deep, but flank speed. Your goal is to get out of the zone where the escorts will circle, about 500's from where your torps came from is where they will start hunting. If you can get out of that circle of death where they hunt before they get there, you can keep good speed. The goal is to leave the DD's hunting where you were and why they are hunting, you're setting up your next attack. If you can attack about 1500 from a DD, you should be able to escape the zone they will hunt in. I've done this over and over until all ships are gone.

Another good method at night is to shoot a M14 from long range, say 5000 yards. You do want to try to hit something, but your goal is to pull the DD's away. After you shoot, haul arse and set up an attack from another position closer in why the escorts are looking for you where you once were. Why they're looking, attack again closer in, try not to dive, but if you do, be ready to surface and run.

Main thing is to attack and get away fast before the dd's come looking. You want to alway have the escorts hunting where you were why your attacking from another position. You attack and move, repeat...

xiombargdei · 03-10-10, 05:06 AM

Hi again

thanks to your good advices and links, i managed to successfuly sink 2 merchants on the same lane and successfuly escape the DDs. I even think i understand the maths behind this technique ^__^ So each time i meet a convoy, i sink 2 of their ships, which is fair enough.

Now, its another story to sink the whole convoy

I think i have to better plot my escape course so i end up somehow behind the fleeing boats. Since they are on a zig-zag pattern, they will present me their flank at a time or another. Working on this technique now.

But i have 2 other concerns :
1. Planes. Its a real pain. every 5 or 10 seconds real time, my radar detects a plane and i have to dive to 30m. Is there any tips about this ? like travel with a slow time compression ? underwater only on daytime, then surface and flank speed at night ? i read that TMO1.9 reduces the planes spawn rate ... i guess there is a problem there.

2. i had a stange encounter last night. I still have the savegame if you guys want. i was escaping from singapore and had a report of a ship 5000m away. I dive to periscope depth and plot interception course. Its a japanese tanker, nothing special here. Problem is this ship is really slow, les than 2Kn, for a lonely tanker on daytime with a calm sea. Well, i hit time compression and wait for the ship to cross my 340. But, it stops at my 320. it stops completly, 0Kn, and just do nothing.... Well, i set up my TDC and fire torpedoes at him. And the torpedoes just cross it without hitting it. wtf ? i reload, set the torps to minimum depth, contact, launch and ... nothing, they just run past it and dont explode.... i think its just a bug, the ship actually dont exist, so i surface the boat, but it fires real bullets at me and i take real damage ^^ so what's up with that ? anyone had the same problem ?

03-08-10, 03:48 AM	#1
xiombargdei Swabbie Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 9 Downloads: 24 Uploads: 0	[TMO 1.9] Help me become a better Captain ^__^ Ahoy everyone! Long time reader, kinda first time poster I used to play SH4 with low Realistic settings and have fun sinking Carriers and BS. Now SHV is out it gave me a craving for playing a submarine simulation again, but seeing how the game is unfinished, i went back to SHIV with TMO 1.9. Now i'm roughly on 80% realism (Map updates are ON, external view ON, Manual Targeting ON). I know TMO changes the convoys behaviour, making them change route, speed and overall being more difficult and track and sink. Well here is my point : Can you, and if yes, how, sink an entire small convoy with TMO 1.9 ? I can get into position, 1Km away, engine off, periscope depth, and sink the first merchant ship of the convoy with no problem. This is when it gets hard : - if i stay where i am and dont move, engine stop, silent running, periscope lowered, DDs come after me and sink me. - If i deep dive to 50meters or more, ahead 1/3rd to not be detected, the convoy gets too far away from me. - If i dive to like 30meters, ahead 2/3rd or more, and try to reposition myself, as soon as I get to periscope depth again, DDs come after me right away. So how do you sink more than one ship in a convoy ? What are your best practices ?

03-08-10, 11:47 PM	#4
magic452 Sea Lord Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Reno Nevada USA Posts: 1,860 Downloads: 85 Uploads: 0	Looney is right about zero gyro angle shots, very accurate and easy to set up. Check Rockin Robbins Sub sim Skippers Bag of Tricks thread. To sink more than one ship in a convoy you have to pick your targets carefully, put yourself into a good firing position and shoot fast. Night or bad weather helps. I can often set up two zero angle shots at the same time, Mk.14 one on low speed and the other high. Target ships in two different columns. TDC/PK can be done the same way high and low speed. Time it right and you'll hit both about the same time before they start to slow and turn. Take your best shoots and run like hell. TMO 1.9 is tough, no more dashing in guns a blazing. More like real life. Do a runaround and repeat. Learn to shoot from long range 2,500m or more. By the way GOOD gaming choice, I'll be playing SH4 and TMO for a long time. Magic __________________ Reported lost 11 Feb. 1942 Signature by depthtok33l

03-08-10, 05:59 AM	#2
looney Commodore Join Date: May 2007 Location: Sneek, The Netherlands Posts: 635 Downloads: 43 Uploads: 0	I'm not an expert on fleetboats. But if you look around on these forums there are some great techniques. I prefer the 90° attack combined with the 0° gyro. Get info on 1 ship of the convoy (outser corner is easiest). You only need speed and track! Cause at 0° gyro range is unimportant, cause the torpedo doesn't need to turn. Input the aob and speed of the target ship into the TDC. Any range will do, but the longer the better. Now put your scope to the 0° gyro bearing (make a triangle where the length of the 2 legs are: 1 speed of torpedo (46 knots for fast), 2 the speed of the convoy. The angle hypothenusa and the 46kn leg is the lead angle for your scope there are pics of this somewhere here on the forum)). Now put your scope at that lead angle. Now send a new range to the TDC. This makes a solution for the torpedo (ie sets the gyro). Now you can fire your torps at the ships (2 per target I recomend). as they cross the scope... Let them come to you instead you to them There are much better explanations but the above is the basics.

03-08-10, 11:38 PM	#3
VonGlaus Gunner Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 92 Downloads: 30 Uploads: 0	The destroyers are going to head to where they think the torpedoes were fired from. If you are sitting dead still in the water, you'll be a sitting duck (underwater duck?) right where they are looking. I usually fire my entire forward spread, dive deep and accelerate under the convoy, then turn onto their track. This sometimes allows me to come back up for another shot. But then, I've never sunk an entire convoy, unless you count sampans...

03-09-10, 12:05 AM	#5
Randomizer Stowaway Posts: n/a Downloads: Uploads:	One Captian's $0.02... Planning the approach is everything. One ideal situation is overlapping targets with a 90* shot (zero gyro angle) but this can be very difficult to achieve in operations. Once you have SJ radar it greatly facilitates predicting where your intercept point will be. There are lots of aids and tutorials around here to help out with the geometry of an approach, use them. Put some effort into studying what worked in real-life, most of those techniques will also work in SH4. Be patient, a premature attack can ruin your day and if you have to eat a counter-attack and some depth charges, better to do so after a kill or two than to fire from a bad approach angle, miss and get attacked anyway. Failure to plan means planning to fail in any submarine attack and stick to the plan until it is obvious that it won't work then disengage and rethink the approach if still undetected. TMO rewards fore thought and deliberate execution and punishes rashness. Lastly, practice, practice, practice. Good Luck and Good Hunting.

03-09-10, 06:36 AM	#6
Armistead Rear Admiral Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: on the Dan Posts: 10,880 Downloads: 364 Uploads: 0	Yes, you can easily wipe out a small convoy of..let's say 6 ships. The first thing with TMO is to understand how the AI works and attack to your best advantage. Here's a good place to start. You want as many factors in your favor when attacking, because the escorts can easily ruin your set up. http://www.ducimus.net/sh415/ai.htm I love the OKane 90 degree attack, but with TMO, your often sensed or picked up and the ships change course and speed so it's hard to attack multiple targets, if any this way..If waters are calm, they will easily see the torps and slow down. If you can do your attack before the escorts come looking, you can use many different methods. I may use OKane for one ship, then use Easy AOB with the stad setting up my other targets. I use RSRD which reworks convoy layers and convoys can be large, 30-60 ships, but also use this attack with smaller convoys. I stay at a narrow angle go deep and silent coming in between the lead DD and flank. Once the lead DD passes, you have to be careful not to fall into the sonar cone of a flank escort. Course your deep, so you'll have to pass on the ships up from, but that's OK. Come up and shoot the ships towards the rear of the convoy and haul arse, going deep, but flank speed. Your goal is to get out of the zone where the escorts will circle, about 500's from where your torps came from is where they will start hunting. If you can get out of that circle of death where they hunt before they get there, you can keep good speed. The goal is to leave the DD's hunting where you were and why they are hunting, you're setting up your next attack. If you can attack about 1500 from a DD, you should be able to escape the zone they will hunt in. I've done this over and over until all ships are gone. Another good method at night is to shoot a M14 from long range, say 5000 yards. You do want to try to hit something, but your goal is to pull the DD's away. After you shoot, haul arse and set up an attack from another position closer in why the escorts are looking for you where you once were. Why they're looking, attack again closer in, try not to dive, but if you do, be ready to surface and run. Main thing is to attack and get away fast before the dd's come looking. You want to alway have the escorts hunting where you were why your attacking from another position. You attack and move, repeat...

03-10-10, 05:06 AM	#7
xiombargdei Swabbie Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 9 Downloads: 24 Uploads: 0	Hi again thanks to your good advices and links, i managed to successfuly sink 2 merchants on the same lane and successfuly escape the DDs. I even think i understand the maths behind this technique ^__^ So each time i meet a convoy, i sink 2 of their ships, which is fair enough. Now, its another story to sink the whole convoy I think i have to better plot my escape course so i end up somehow behind the fleeing boats. Since they are on a zig-zag pattern, they will present me their flank at a time or another. Working on this technique now. But i have 2 other concerns : 1. Planes. Its a real pain. every 5 or 10 seconds real time, my radar detects a plane and i have to dive to 30m. Is there any tips about this ? like travel with a slow time compression ? underwater only on daytime, then surface and flank speed at night ? i read that TMO1.9 reduces the planes spawn rate ... i guess there is a problem there. 2. i had a stange encounter last night. I still have the savegame if you guys want. i was escaping from singapore and had a report of a ship 5000m away. I dive to periscope depth and plot interception course. Its a japanese tanker, nothing special here. Problem is this ship is really slow, les than 2Kn, for a lonely tanker on daytime with a calm sea. Well, i hit time compression and wait for the ship to cross my 340. But, it stops at my 320. it stops completly, 0Kn, and just do nothing.... Well, i set up my TDC and fire torpedoes at him. And the torpedoes just cross it without hitting it. wtf ? i reload, set the torps to minimum depth, contact, launch and ... nothing, they just run past it and dont explode.... i think its just a bug, the ship actually dont exist, so i surface the boat, but it fires real bullets at me and i take real damage ^^ so what's up with that ? anyone had the same problem ?