Manual targeting is hard for me

[maillemaker]

So I started and ended my first campaign trying 100% realism.

I can't hit anything.

I had a perfect line-up on a ship. It was a granville freighter. I ID'd it, got it's range with stadiometer (it was reading about 1500m, according to map it was about 1200), and used stopwatch at 60 seconds to get speed. My sub was at a dead-stop so speed should have been accurate.

When I went to TDC screen, my torpedo track was aiming BEHIND the ship!

Does anyone know a good Youtube manual targeting video in English?

Steve

I highly recommend that you abandon the Notepad Method.

You may wish to employ a "dry run" to obtain Target Speed, using the Splitlog Formula.
An AOB of 90 degrees to the target is best, but NOT required.
If your close to disecting the targets track at 90 degrees, you don't have to stop either.

Identify your target.

Get in your best "guesstimated" position to disect the targets track, at 90 degrees.

Slow to 1 or 2 knots, to avoid detection.

Point your Periscope or UZO at 000.

When the targets bow reaches the 000 mark, start the Stop Watch.

When the targets stern reaches 000, stop the Stop Watch.
(The same Stop Watch that times your torpedoes).
That number will remain on the watch, until you remove it, or fire a torpedo.

Go below, and do your homework.
(1.852 x targets length in meters)
divided by time in seconds on the stop watch
equals speed in knots.

Now you have his speed, without having to rely on that notepad nonsense.
(Depending on how exact you want the result, you can round 1.852 to either 1.9 or just plain old 2.)

Time invested in getting his exact course is also well worth it.
Much better than trying to guesstimate his AOB.

Hope this was helpful.

[Fader_Berg]

The stadiometer is one ugly SOB. It's quite hard to get a good result with it. I don't trust it at all.

When targeting manually - in cases like this when you've got time. Don't bother to find out the range. Just concentrate on AOB and speed. Set the range to 300m in the TDC. And turn your periscope so that the gyroangle points to a straight run. Then fire when he ship crosses your aim. If you've done your AOB and speed estimates ok, the torpedo will hit at bearing 0, no matter the range.

[Dissaray]

I must agree that range is rather irrelivant when manualy targeting ships, with exception of when you are planing a simultanious strike on two or more targets; then the range is very much important.

As for speed and AOB readings you can get both via the map and some simple plotng. Mark the location of the ship on your map and start yoru stop watch. Allow 3 minites and 15 seconds to pass and mark the ships location on the map agin. Measure the distance between point one and two and multiply that by 10 and you will have the target's speed in knots. The next bit helps if you have a map tool mod of some kind, like the one in the GWX mod, that will tell you the bearing of line you are drawing. Simply extend the line from point one thru point two and you will have the target's course and with a little protarctor work you can figure the AOB.

There are also GUI mods that can greatly aid you in this like the OLC gui or the Markman gui. Both are simular in function and vrey helpful.

Originally Posted by Dissaray

I must agree that range is rather irrelivant when manualy targeting ships, with exception of when you are planing a simultanious strike on two or more targets; then the range is very much important.

It's also extremely important when making a 90 degree shot. That is firing on a target that's either on the same (bow tubes) course as you, OR opposite (stern tubes) course as you. If one plays "No Parking", it's the only way of attacking a convoy from the inside, without getting run over.

As for speed and AOB readings you can get both via the map and some simple plotng. Mark the location of the ship on your map and start yoru stop watch. Allow 3 minites and 15 seconds to pass and mark the ships location on the map agin. Measure the distance between point one and two and multiply that by 10 and you will have the target's speed in knots. The next bit helps if you have a map tool mod of some kind, like the one in the GWX mod, that will tell you the bearing of line you are drawing. Simply extend the line from point one thru point two and you will have the target's course and with a little protarctor work you can figure the AOB.

There are also GUI mods that can greatly aid you in this like the OLC gui or the Markman gui. Both are simular in function and vrey helpful.

I can't get away with that, as there are no contacts displayed on my chart.
I do however practice the same principal, over much longer ranges, or keep the target at 090/270 while working around it. The second method is faster, but not as perfect.

[maillemaker]

You may wish to employ a "dry run" to obtain Target Speed, using the Splitlog Formula.
An AOB of 90 degrees to the target is best, but NOT required.
If your close to disecting the targets track at 90 degrees, you don't have to stop either.

Identify your target.

Get in your best "guesstimated" position to disect the targets track, at 90 degrees.

OK, first question:

I always approach ships being well in front of them, and I point my sub 90 degrees TO THEIR TRACK. This is NOT, as I understand it, the same thing as having an Angle on the Bow of 90 degrees.

Angle on the Bow, as I understand it, is the angle from the target ship (not their heading) to my sub.

So if my sub is 90 degrees to the target ship's HEADING, but they are a zillion miles away, the angle on the bow will be quite small, approaching zero the farther away they are. Angle on the Bow will not equal 90 degrees until they are directly in front of my sub, and then, of course, it's too late to be shooting torpedoes.

Is this correct?

The way I understand it, I want to position my sub 90 degrees TO THE TARGET SHIP'S HEADING.

I then calculate the angle on the bow quite precisely using the protractor tool on the map, picking a point directly in front of the target ship, then ON the target ship, then ON my sub. This give me the angle between the target ship's nose and my sub. This should be the AOB, right?

This part I have down.

When the targets bow reaches the 000 mark, start the Stop Watch.

When the targets stern reaches 000, stop the Stop Watch.
(The same Stop Watch that times your torpedoes).
That number will remain on the watch, until you remove it, or fire a torpedo.

So basically you are saying let the ship pass directly in front of my sub (bearing 000)???? Don't you then miss the shot? Or do I then, now having the speed, have to go race in front of them again for a shot?

And turn your periscope so that the gyroangle points to a straight run.

I don't understand what this means or how to do it. Please explain?

Also, is the namometer or whatever it is (the markings on the right side of the map) useful for calculating speed?

Steve

[BillCar]

To get the speed via fixed line method (which, in my opinion, is the best way to go about doing it before you fire), you should let the ship pass across your 000 or your 180. Do not line your crosshairs up off of either of these numbers, as doing so makes the motion of your U-boat have a negative impact on the accuracy of the reading.

After doing this, yes, you need to then overhaul the enemy ship and get in front of it for a firing solution (assuming you want to shoot from an AOB of roughly 90.) This is how it was done in real life.

Another method for gathering speed that was commonly used by the U-boat commanders was to simply steer a parallel course and match your speed so that the enemy ship stays on the same bearing (constant bearing method). If you are doing 6 knots on a parallel course and the enemy ship is staying at 72 degrees (for example) for a long time, then they are also doing 6 knots. If they move from 72 to 71, 70, 69... etc. they are going faster. Move your speed up and see if they stop moving. If they move from 72 to 73, 74, 75... you are moving faster than them. Slow down and try a lower speed.

This can be done submerged with hydrophone contacts as well.

If you look around, you can find joegrundman's tutorial for eyeballing the AOB of a ship. There are other ways to do it - mathematically, or with the attack disk (which comes in pretty handy - you can find it in the OLC GUI or in Hitman's upcoming [and totally amazing] GUI for GWX 3.0). However, the most common method in reality was to simply eyeball the AOB.

Learn how to eyeball the AOB; it is the fastest method by far. Difficult to do from an extreme distance, but by the time you're close enough to shoot, you'll be able to tell easily. Second fastest method is the attack disk method.

As for plotting, I didn't bother with that unless it's a clear day with high visibility - in those cases, rather than risk being spotted, I will take multiple measurements and plot the enemy's course on my nav map. Then I will sail way out of visual range and submerge up ahead. That is literally the only situation in which I bother, though. Otherwise, you can gather all the information you need with the methods I described above! And also, it's possible to do this using the attack disk in the OLC or Hitman mods, too - if you are confident in your estimate of the AOB, you can figure the enemy's course reasonably accurately. The plotting method is still more accurate in this case, though.



It's definitely hard at first, but trust me, as soon as you get rid of the notepad (I like GUIs that take it out completely, like OLC or Hitman's Optics), it gets way *easier*. The notepad was supposed to be easy, but it was horrible, and made me miss constantly. Once I learned how it was ACTUALLY done, it was

SO
MUCH
EASIER.

And as for range, all you need to really know for 90 degree shots is if you are within the torpedo's effective range. For high parallax shots, you do need accurate range. Mods like OLC or Hitman's Optics mod / upcoming GUI make it easy to get range to target. Hitman's mod is especially fast, as it uses realistic hash marks within the scope view for rangefinding telemetry. Put the horizontal line of the scope at the top of the mast, and then count down hash marks to the bottom. Then refer to the table that comes with the mod. Bingo! You have a surprisingly accurate range to target!

You can find the old Hitman Optics for GWX and OLC GUI in the downloads section, under gameplay mods (I believe). They are both excellent. Hitman's mod comes with a table explaining how to find range realistically using the periscope. OLC GUI has a tutorial video for download somewhere that explains all the various functions of its periscope attack wheel.

Stick with it; once you get the hang of it, you will have significantly more fun than you did using the assisted targeting methods!

[Dissaray]

Originally Posted by maillemaker

OK, first question:

I always approach ships being well in front of them, and I point my sub 90 degrees TO THEIR TRACK. This is NOT, as I understand it, the same thing as having an Angle on the Bow of 90 degrees.

Angle on the Bow, as I understand it, is the angle from the target ship (not their heading) to my sub.

So if my sub is 90 degrees to the target ship's HEADING, but they are a zillion miles away, the angle on the bow will be quite small, approaching zero the farther away they are. Angle on the Bow will not equal 90 degrees until they are directly in front of my sub, and then, of course, it's too late to be shooting torpedoes.

Is this correct?

You are right in so far as if you are perpendicular to the targets course and out in front of it the AOB will be smaler than 90. Set the AOB to 90 any way. Put the parascope to 00 degrees and then AOB to 90 and then lock in your TDC data. This should cause your gyro angle to read out some number, 045 for example. This number is the number of degrees your torpido is going to turn when you fire it. Now you rotate your parascope until your gyroangle reads 000, meaning your torpido will run in a strate line after you fire it; realy anything that is +/- 10 from 000 will work just fine. This will also adjust your AOB reading in your TDC, if you have it locked in properly, to a close estamate of what the AOB will be when the ship is at that point. If you rotate further to the ship it will tell you, more or less, what the current AOB for the target is. After you have all this set up you wait. Wait until your target comes into your scope. Where ever your verticle line in your parascope crosses your target when you fire the torpido should hit there, or relitivly close to it.

The way I understand it, I want to position my sub 90 degrees TO THE TARGET SHIP'S HEADING.

I then calculate the angle on the bow quite precisely using the protractor tool on the map, picking a point directly in front of the target ship, then ON the target ship, then ON my sub. This give me the angle between the target ship's nose and my sub. This should be the AOB, right?

This part I have down.
Steve

I think this method for calculting the angle will actualy get you closer to the angle on the stern, or the AOB for yoru position from the other side of the ship. I use that method my self, with a minor adjustment from your method, when I have time or visibility is too low for parascope observations. What you need to do in order to get an AOB that will work best for you is put your first protractor mark on the stern of the target ship, then extend to the bow of the ship and then finaly out to your sub. At least that is what works for me.

[makman94]

Originally Posted by maillemaker

So I started and ended my first campaign trying 100% realism.

I can't hit anything.

I had a perfect line-up on a ship. It was a granville freighter. I ID'd it, got it's range with stadiometer (it was reading about 1500m, according to map it was about 1200), and used stopwatch at 60 seconds to get speed. My sub was at a dead-stop so speed should have been accurate.

When I went to TDC screen, my torpedo track was aiming BEHIND the ship!

Does anyone know a good Youtube manual targeting video in English?

Steve

assuming that you did all right....
you 'lost' your target becuase granville freighter's length is wrong.(speed error) and also its mast (range error)

[maillemaker]

OK, now I can hit stuff!

I am using the "fixed wire" method.

Here is how I do it.



1) Point periscope about 10 degrees in front of target. Press "=". This brings my sub's heading to where the periscope is pointing.

2) Once submarine has stopped turning, center up periscope on sub bearing 000. Your vertical crosshair should be in front of the target ship.

3) Wait for the target ship's nose to touch the vertical crosshair. While you are waiting, identify ship in recognition manual and determine ship length. When the target ship's nose touches the vertical crosshair, start stopwatch.

4) Wait for the target ship's stern to pass the vertical crosshair. Stop stopwatch.

5) Use this forumula to determine speed:

(1.852 * ship length in meters) / time in seconds

6) Go to the TDC.

7) Turn on manual data entry.

8) Set Angle on the Bow (AoB) to 90 degrees starboard or port, depending on whether you are on the starboard or port side of the target ship. It does not matter what your actual AoB is.

9) Dial in the target ship's speed.

10) Turn off manual data entry on the TDC.

11) Return to periscope view. Turn the periscope until the gyroscope angle is 000.

12) Wait for target ship to travel across crosshairs. When ship is in vertical crosshair, fire torpedo!

Note: If you don't want to wait for the ship to hit the vertical crosshair, you can turn the sub left or right to speed up the process. It is advisible not to fire until your sub has stopped turning.

WHAT I HAVE LEARNED.

First, The simulation is a lot harder this way!

Second, the simulation becomes much more an exercise of pointing your submarine instead of pointing your periscope.

Whoever changed my thread title, manual targeting still sucks!

Steve

[BillCar]

Great stuff! You'll have a lot of fun with this.

For Hitman's optics, you need to hit CTRL + T to lock and unlock the TDC. I forgot to mention that.

Good hunting!

[Pisces]

Maillemaker:

Congratulations on getting better at this.

But at step 8 it actually does matter what the real AOB is. If you didn't turn back to a course that is perpendicular to the tartget course you need to set to the AOB as seen at that point. Only set the AOB dial when you actually are facing a direction that will get an AOB of 90 when the target passes the periscope view. You may have succeded because the actual AOB was not that much different but other situations might have resulted in a miss.

At step 5 the number should really be 1.944 or for simplicity sake 2. The number 1.852 is not correct. Close enough, but not correct.

[vergol]

When in doubt, fire a spread!