Somebody fix the Wile E Coyote Physics Model

Subnuts · 01-11-10, 11:17 PM

It happened to me again yesterday.

Was playing SHIV , and came across a stationary Akizuki-class DD in a shallow harbor. Closed to within 600 yards, staying in his baffles, and set up a three-shot spread, one aimed for the bow, another for the boiler room, and a third for the engine room. I figured that if he took off, the bow shot would hit him under the bridge, or if he went in reverse, the stern shot would hit in that area. Set the depth to six feet, opened the bow caps, and let loose in three second intervals...

And every single torpedo missed. The bastard went from a standstill to 20 knots in five seconds, came to a sudden stop, and backed out of there at 37 knots, a speed it took all of 10 seconds to achieve.

Come on, Ubi. This is the hair-ripping, teeth-gnashing, fist-pounding sort of **** I didn't have to put up with in the original SH, when ships changed speeds in historically accurate manner, and knew how to avoid steam torpedoes in an intelligent manner. Since when can a stationary ship conjure up 10,000 pounds of steam pressure from Shangri-La and vipadeedooda out of there like greased lightning the moment a lookout spotted a torpedo? In the real world, ships have physical mass and water has a slightly higher viscosity than outer space.

Seriously, this kind of thing pisses me off. It's why, no matter how much I try, I prefer reading about submarine warfare instead of simulating it on my computer. And can they please fix ASDIC this time around? It hasn't been properly simulated since AOD and SH. Back then, it was a sweeping hydrophone with a narrow detection cone, and unless your boat was inside that cone when it went active, you wouldn't be detected. This was historically accurate, but the last three SHs screwed it up by turning it into a 270-degree passive tripwire - get too close, and BAM! instant detection.

C'mon folks. We're gawking over eye-candy and debating the 3D interior and interface, but completely ignoring the very real REPEATED failures of the past!

IanC · 01-11-10, 11:21 PM

I gotta give that post two big thumbs up!

mookiemookie · 01-11-10, 11:53 PM

Hard to fault this. I remember installing the "real ship mechanics" mod and still not being satisfied. A 15,000 ton warship does not speed up and slow down and turn on a dime. The concept of inertia is sorely missing.

ETR3(SS) · 01-12-10, 12:02 AM

Kinda makes one wonder why the old school subsims got it right and the new ones can't.

01-12-10, 12:44 AM

well try my manuvering fix mod: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=150164

i dont have all the new ships in it but it covers all stock ships and while they still get underway too quickly they move slow enough so a scenerio such as subnuts describes wont get away.

if i slowed them any more than i did it causes ships to lose speed and stop when doing evasive manuvers so i was limited to how far i could take it but they definately act like they have to build up speed and not like a bunch of motorcyles darting around

ubi did say ship physics were being redesigned but i dont recall a specific mention of ship acceleration speeds even though they implied they were also being redone

Turbografx · 01-12-10, 02:46 AM

1) Agree entirely, things like this should not be re-occurring, once pointed out they should be fixed next time round.

2) Even if this isn't fixed as it should be in the first place, hopefully things won't be so hardcoded and changes can be made more easily.

JScones · 01-13-10, 03:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ETR3(SS)

Kinda makes one wonder why the old school subsims got it right and the new ones can't.

Too much to too many?

Steeltrap · 01-13-10, 05:37 AM

I've written some similar things elsewhere. One I tend to go on about is the SD radar in SH4 giving you range AND bearing.

I regard these as simply inept/unprofessional/lazy/bull**** (take your pick).

When SH5 comes out I'm going to ask people a bunch of questions about KNOWN technical performance (this subject is directly from recent, well-documented history after all).

If they can't get them right then I'll just conclude "sim, my arse" and save my $$.

SH4 was the last straw for me. I thought SH2 blew, too. SH3 was good once you got NYGM (my preferred) or GWX, but lots of that should simply be there from the start - I don't mean all the extra eye candy, but the simple technical performance/modelling snafus that were addressed.

Cheers

01-11-10, 11:17 PM	#1
Subnuts The Old Man Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Connecticut Posts: 1,658 Downloads: 14 Uploads: 0	Somebody fix the Wile E Coyote Physics Model It happened to me again yesterday. Was playing SHIV , and came across a stationary Akizuki-class DD in a shallow harbor. Closed to within 600 yards, staying in his baffles, and set up a three-shot spread, one aimed for the bow, another for the boiler room, and a third for the engine room. I figured that if he took off, the bow shot would hit him under the bridge, or if he went in reverse, the stern shot would hit in that area. Set the depth to six feet, opened the bow caps, and let loose in three second intervals... And every single torpedo missed. The bastard went from a standstill to 20 knots in five seconds, came to a sudden stop, and backed out of there at 37 knots, a speed it took all of 10 seconds to achieve. Come on, Ubi. This is the hair-ripping, teeth-gnashing, fist-pounding sort of **** I didn't have to put up with in the original SH, when ships changed speeds in historically accurate manner, and knew how to avoid steam torpedoes in an intelligent manner. Since when can a stationary ship conjure up 10,000 pounds of steam pressure from Shangri-La and vipadeedooda out of there like greased lightning the moment a lookout spotted a torpedo? In the real world, ships have physical mass and water has a slightly higher viscosity than outer space. Seriously, this kind of thing pisses me off. It's why, no matter how much I try, I prefer reading about submarine warfare instead of simulating it on my computer. And can they please fix ASDIC this time around? It hasn't been properly simulated since AOD and SH. Back then, it was a sweeping hydrophone with a narrow detection cone, and unless your boat was inside that cone when it went active, you wouldn't be detected. This was historically accurate, but the last three SHs screwed it up by turning it into a 270-degree passive tripwire - get too close, and BAM! instant detection. C'mon folks. We're gawking over eye-candy and debating the 3D interior and interface, but completely ignoring the very real REPEATED failures of the past! __________________ My Amazon.com reviews

01-11-10, 11:53 PM	#3
mookiemookie Navy Seal Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 9,404 Downloads: 105 Uploads: 1	Hard to fault this. I remember installing the "real ship mechanics" mod and still not being satisfied. A 15,000 ton warship does not speed up and slow down and turn on a dime. The concept of inertia is sorely missing. __________________ They don’t think it be like it is, but it do. Want more U-boat Kaleun portraits for your SH3 Commander Profiles? Download the SH3 Commander Portrait Pack here.

01-12-10, 12:02 AM	#4
ETR3(SS) Ocean Warrior Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Between test depth and periscope depth Posts: 3,021 Downloads: 175 Uploads: 16	Kinda makes one wonder why the old school subsims got it right and the new ones can't. __________________ USS Kentucky SSBN 737 (G) Comms Div 2003-2006 Qualified 19 November 03 Yes I was really on a submarine.

01-11-10, 11:21 PM	#2
IanC Grey Wolf Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Running silent and deep Posts: 902 Downloads: 3 Uploads: 0	I gotta give that post two big thumbs up!

01-12-10, 12:44 AM	#5
Webster Stowaway Posts: n/a Downloads: Uploads:	well try my manuvering fix mod: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=150164 i dont have all the new ships in it but it covers all stock ships and while they still get underway too quickly they move slow enough so a scenerio such as subnuts describes wont get away. if i slowed them any more than i did it causes ships to lose speed and stop when doing evasive manuvers so i was limited to how far i could take it but they definately act like they have to build up speed and not like a bunch of motorcyles darting around ubi did say ship physics were being redesigned but i dont recall a specific mention of ship acceleration speeds even though they implied they were also being redone

01-12-10, 02:46 AM	#6
Turbografx Old Stormalong Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: The Gret Stet of Loosiana Posts: 232 Downloads: 104 Uploads: 0	1) Agree entirely, things like this should not be re-occurring, once pointed out they should be fixed next time round. 2) Even if this isn't fixed as it should be in the first place, hopefully things won't be so hardcoded and changes can be made more easily.

01-13-10, 05:37 AM	#8
Steeltrap Grey Wolf Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 818 Downloads: 3 Uploads: 0	I've written some similar things elsewhere. One I tend to go on about is the SD radar in SH4 giving you range AND bearing. I regard these as simply inept/unprofessional/lazy/bull**** (take your pick). When SH5 comes out I'm going to ask people a bunch of questions about KNOWN technical performance (this subject is directly from recent, well-documented history after all). If they can't get them right then I'll just conclude "sim, my arse" and save my $$. SH4 was the last straw for me. I thought SH2 blew, too. SH3 was good once you got NYGM (my preferred) or GWX, but lots of that should simply be there from the start - I don't mean all the extra eye candy, but the simple technical performance/modelling snafus that were addressed. Cheers