RSRD Comments

[ColonelSandersLite]

I've been playing TMO + rsrd

Started with an S-boat out of the Philippines at the start of the war and now have a Balao class in September of 43.

So far 643,971 tons in 13 patrols. Two of those where me raiding Truk harbor netting over 100,000 tons each.

Discounting those two harbor raids, that averages to around 38,500 tons per patrol. The 5 s-boat patrols would have been much lower just due to the comparatively weak armament, which means the other 6 should be somewhat higher than the average.



The good:
Variety of stuff seems to be increased.

At the start of the war, I was heading home to pick up more gas and encountered 2 massive invasion fleets of around 50 ships one after another heading towards Lingayen gulf. I was, of course, duly impressed and this is probably the reason I've stuck with rsrd so long.

I like the concept that the convoys are generated from historical record and will be where they really where at any given time.



The bad:
I've encountered exactly 3 convoys during the whole war. The previously mentioned 2 at the start and a small one heading towards one of the Soloman islands.

I'm not saying the convoys aren't there to be found where they're supposed to be, however, this campaign generates so many single ships just zipping around that I always run out of torpedoes *and* deck gun ammo before I can even get to the areas the convoys are at.

Because of this, I can honestly say that I've only been attacked by ASW forces a whole 1 time, and that was during a harbor raid. The only damage I've taken was when I seriously screwed the pooch in a surface engagement against, I think, a large modern composite.

Call me crazy, but I get the feeling that something is fundamentally wrong with this picture. It's not my shooting, I rarely miss so I'm not using an excessive number of torpedoes/shells on each target. Just guessing here, but the single slow merchants running around probably need to be reduced by around 90%.

In addition, perhaps I'm alone in this, but I feel very strongly that the special operations add some much needed variety in game play.


Anyways, that's my 2c just for anyone that's interested.

Edit:
Come to think of it I've also encountered 2 "convoys" of around a half dozen sampans, but I don't really count those. Still took the renown bonus for radioing them in though...

[SteamWake]

Yea hate patrols like that.

Well you wanted 'realisim' hence the mods.

You got it

[ColonelSandersLite]

Originally Posted by SteamWake

Well you wanted 'realisim' hence the mods.

You got it

So you're saying that the Japanese generally didn't convoy and that there where so many single ship targets afloat it's easy to score 40,000 tons of merchants every time you go out with absolutely 0 risk? Doesn't sound right to me.

Where in the world would the 20% casualty rate amongst submariners come from then I wonder?

[Zero Niner]

Can't really compare real life records with the tonnage one can get in the game. In the game on ealways gets the credit for a sinking, down to the correct class of ship whereas IRL it was a much more difficult process to claim credit. Combat flight simulations exhibit a similar characteristic.

About Japanese merchant convoys - afaik the Japs never realy favoured convoys until merchant sipping losses forced them to do so late in the war. Convoy duty & ASW duty I think was looked upon as an inferior assignment.

I suppose th eIJN perhaps had different concepts on how to prosecute ASW. Certainly they did not really adopt the tactics the Allies used such as hunter killer groups and to a certain extent escorted convoys.

From what I've read it's historically accurate to encounter lone ships in the early to mid-war years and merchant convoys, lightly escorted by Allied standards, later in the war.

[Torplexed]

Originally Posted by ColonelSandersLite

Where in the world would the 20% casualty rate amongst submariners come from then I wonder?

Sadly, a lot of it was self-inflicted. 11 of the 52 US subs lost weren't due to the enemy. Three older US submarines sank in accidents in US controlled waters. USS Dorado and Sea Wolf were sunk by friendly forces. USS Tang and Tullibee by circular runs of their own torpedoes. Four (S-27, S-36, S-39, and Darter ended up stranded on reefs.

Plus, the Japanese observed how poorly US torpedoes performed early in the war and were lulled by it into a false sense of security. By the time the tide turned they were way behind the ball in the convoying and escort game although they tried desperately to catch up.

[MK2]

Originally Posted by Torplexed

Sadly, a lot of it was self-inflicted. 11 of the 52 US subs lost weren't due to the enemy. Three older US submarines sank in accidents in US controlled waters. USS Dorado and Sea Wolf were sunk by friendly forces. USS Tang and Tullibee by circular runs of their own torpedoes. Four (S-27, S-36, S-39, and Darter ended up stranded on reefs.

Plus, the Japanese observed how poorly US torpedoes performed early in the war and were lulled by it into a false sense of security. By the time the tide turned they were way behind the ball in the convoying and escort game although they tried desperately to catch up.

Let's not forget the ones that were lost to probable enemy mines. Mines accounted for subs as well.

[Torplexed]

Originally Posted by MK2

Let's not forget the ones that were lost to probable enemy mines. Mines accounted for subs as well.

Very true. Those probably accounted for many US subs that were never heard from again that aren't mentioned in Japanese records. Regrettably, the stock game makes penetrating Japanese harbours and ports (especially the Home Islands ones) too easy, with no net defences or mines in place. US subs didn't really start penetrating the Inland Sea until 1945 with FM gear for mine detection.

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by ColonelSandersLite

So you're saying that the Japanese generally didn't convoy and that there where so many single ship targets afloat it's easy to score 40,000 tons of merchants every time you go out with absolutely 0 risk? Doesn't sound right to me.

Where in the world would the 20% casualty rate amongst submariners come from then I wonder?

In short, yes, convoys were not the same type seen in the ATO. 2-5 ships. Some escorted. Some not. Later in the war the ships would hug the coast hoping the shallows would protect them. In some cases it did. Others not. The very large convoys did happen but certainly not like the ATO convoys. As for what Niki stated above. Bum torpedos, Japanese DC that went off to shallow as our submarines were much deeper until someone blabbed about it. As our torpedoes got better the sub dominated the Pacific. I thing RSRD is close as we will get to the real deal.

/agree with most of what's been said. After recently reading 'clear the bridge' it's apparent that life in the Pacific for the Americans was quite a different ballgame than what the U-boats experienced all around.

Early on O'kane even mentions something reflecting the 'inevitable conclusion of the war'.

That said, I do sympathize about the easy pickings, despite running these mods. There are several places one can go and sit...and just wait for the ships to roll into the choke points almost 'assembly line' syle. There have been times I simply passed up ships or saved and exited because it was 'tedious' having to get in position and start the tracking over again immediately after sinking several others...

It's that 'grass is greener' thing though, if the modders were to reduce the traffic to virtually nothing, folks would complain bitterly about 'nothing to shoot at' and 'not being realistic'... dunno what the answer is...

[AVGWarhawk]

The only answer is creating something with balance. I think RSRD does that. I have had days of patrolling and finding nothing. Then other patrols were all hell breaks loose. RSRD is certainly better than stock.

[ColonelSandersLite]

Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk

In short, yes, convoys were not the same type seen in the ATO. 2-5 ships. Some escorted. Some not. Later in the war the ships would hug the coast hoping the shallows would protect them.

You know, that's exactly what I'd like to see then. If your average patrol had few contacts, well that's perfectly fine by me. I want a sim, not continual target practice.

Originally Posted by Sevrin

That said, I do sympathize about the easy pickings, despite running these mods. There are several places one can go and sit...and just wait for the ships to roll into the choke points almost 'assembly line' syle. There have been times I simply passed up ships or saved and exited because it was 'tedious' having to get in position and start the tracking over again immediately after sinking several others...

That's exactly my feeling, except I don't find I even need to go sit somewhere. Perhaps people tend to play sailing out of pearl, and I have to admit that I haven't tried that, but just trying to get to your patrol zone in the Asiatic fleet is a little ridiculous as there's always crap moving around between the islands. Half the time I run out of torpedoes before I even get to my assigned patrol area...

The merchant just keep rolling into your sights individually without so so much as an auxillery sub chaser in a 100 mile radius. With no risk, it's seriously just target practice.



Somone mentioned balance, I quite frankly have to say that RSRD's balance is horrible compared to the stock campaign. I'm a big proponent of the mods in general, but you know what? In the stock campaign I do encounter individual ships, but it's not 99% of the time like in RSRD. In stock, I've encountered *many* small convoys with just a few ships, the occaisional rare large convoy, and hunter killer groups. While the stock campaign throws way too many contacts at you, they are at least a better mix, and if you ask me, probably more in line with what a commander could encounter during a career percentage wise. Just guessing, but the game spams the contacts mainly to keep the action going, as yes, a lot of players would complain if there where no contacts. RSRD seems to reduce the frequency of the major convoys to historical levels which in my book is great. The trouble is that small 2 or 3 ship merchant groups where cut completely, the hunter-killer are gone as well, and the individual ship contacts where not reduced in proportion.

Anyways, what I'm getting at with all of this:

In 2 years of war, I have exceeded by a factor of 6.75 Fluckey's JANAC score of 95,360 without getting attacked by an enemy escort even once. In fact, aside from that invasion force and 2 harbor raids, I have not even seen a single enemy warship. Something is very fundamentally wrong with that picture. Since I wrote the above, I've uninstalled RSRD and started my first patrol with TMO's base campaign (slightly modified stock I believe). I've already been attacked by an enemy hunter killer group just days out of port (the Philippines). It was ineffective, but at least the enemy tried, adding that element of risk, and that was certainly more *interesting* than just shooting merchants "assembly line style" as Sevrin puts it.

[Radio]

The very first mod I installed was RSRD, simply because my very first warship contact ever in the game was a Japanese task force of 7 (!!!) BB, 6 DD and ~5 CA accompanied by 2 or 3 merchants which managed to cruise around at 6 knots only, driving in wild circles like being drunk, without the slightest coordination and accidentally ramming one of their DD and sinking it.

That's when I thought: "Ugh, this is so pathetically wrong, this needs a mod to improve it."

Installed RSRD and was happy

But yes, convoys should be more frequent, it's late '42 in my game and I haven't seen a single one.

[Rockin Robbins]

Originally Posted by ColonelSandersLite

Because of this, I can honestly say that I've only been attacked by ASW forces a whole 1 time, and that was during a harbor raid. The only damage I've taken was when I seriously screwed the pooch in a surface engagement against, I think, a large modern composite.

Don't worry. Later in the war the increased convoys (HEAVILY guarded convoys) will have you eating your words and remembering this "defect" fondly!

Have patience grasshopper, a large habenero pepper is best eaten in small portions at several separate meals!