and they call us "Astro turfers"

[SteamWake]

They call us tea baggers, asto turfers, angry mobs, manufactured and contrived 'hate' for the black man in office.

So whos 'manufacturing' things now?

Originally Posted by The New York Post

WASHINGTON -- President Obama yesterday rolled out the red carpet -- and handed out doctors' white coats as well, just so nobody missed his hard-sell health-care message.

In a heavy-handed attempt at reviving support for health-care reform, the White House orchestrated a massive photo op to buttress its claim that front-line physicians support Obama.

"Members of the medical community -- who deal with red tape day in and day out -- rightly recognize that the Democrats' government takeover would weaken the doctor-patient relationship that is so critical to making the right health-care decisions," he said.

Obama made no mention of the "public option" -- a controversial government-run insurance plan favored by liberal Democrats -- in his Rose Garden spiel.

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/nationa...EeRQbxCC0TNZHN

[nikimcbee]

Oh, I thought this thread was going to be about Aaron Rodgers, as he is now an expert in the turf in the metrodome.

Nevermind.

[mookiemookie]

If you think the insurance companies haven't poured millions of dollars into whipping up the masses against real health care reform, you're fooling yourself.

But by all means, go ahead and let millions of people die because your corporate masters want to score cheap political points against the other side.

[SteamWake]

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

If you think the insurance companies haven't poured millions of dollars into whipping up the masses against real health care reform, you're fooling yourself.

But by all means, go ahead and let millions of people die because your corporate masters want to score cheap political points against the other side.

So whats to hide?

Congressional leaders fight against posting bills online

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/po...-63557217.html

[FIREWALL]

It was a garden party. The Dr.s got free eats, laughed and left.

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

If you think the insurance companies haven't poured millions of dollars into whipping up the masses against real health care reform, you're fooling yourself.

But by all means, go ahead and let millions of people die because your corporate masters want to score cheap political points against the other side.

Can you directly link an insurance company that has poured millions into whipping up a frenzy against healthcare reform?

[SteamWake]

I would think that the insurance industry would be against health care simply due to the fact of .. how in the hell are they going to compete with an industry that operates at a loss

But yea I dont see any orginized efforts by 'big insurance' on this thing one way or the other. In fact there conspicuous by their abscence.

[AVGWarhawk]

Of course the insurance companies are against healthcare sponsored by the government because no one can compete with the government. However, I did not see booths and banners sponsored by an insurance company at the march on Washington a few weeks ago. To be honest, I do not believe I have heard one peep from the insurance companies on this healthcare reform.

[Aramike]

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

If you think the insurance companies haven't poured millions of dollars into whipping up the masses against real health care reform, you're fooling yourself.

But by all means, go ahead and let millions of people die because your corporate masters want to score cheap political points against the other side.

That's a tad grand, don't you think?

I've never hidden the fact that I support some sort of universal health care, but millions of people are not dying because of a corporate approach. In fact, corporations are the single largest payers of health insurance in this country, helping to provide private insurance to MILLIONS of Americans. Furthermore, all Americans HAVE ACCESS TO HEALTHCARE - they just get billed for it and it goes on their credit.

As a result, I'd like to suggest that we dispense with the Michael Moore dramatics and approach the issue reasonably. Personally, I believe that some measure of universal health care should happen. I believe there should be a government option for catastrophic care, and I believe it is possible to create an economic system that can deter the overuse that leads to rationed care, while still not making standard care inaccessible.

But what does our idiotic Congress do? They write bills that are beyond convoluted and seem to only marginally decrease the financial burden of the individual, while making absurd promises out of hand (such as, it's cost neutral, it won't help lead to the elimination of private insurance, etc.).

Ultimately, mookie, your side is failing because they are flat out lying. Sure, they have good intentions - but the average American isn't so stupid as the buy the BS they're selling (cost neutral? REALLY???). Furthermore, the average American understands that they are proposing a dramatic change in the nation's healthcare landscape, all the while they clearly either have no grasp on the full cause/effect factor of the bill, or they do and are lying about it.

This is the least trusted Congress in American history, and they want us to trust them to dramatically and convolutedly change the very nature of something that so many of us have little problem with. And, they want to ram it down our throats, right on the tail of a failed stimulus package that constituted the greatest amount of government spending in HISTORY. And they want us to trust the predictive powers of the White House and a president who told us that the stimulus must be rushed through and doing so would prevent unemployment from rising beyond 8%.

The fact is that, especially regarding healthcare, the White House and Congress have no idea what the hell they are doing. Americans, by and large, are aware of the fact that they have no idea what the hell they are doing.

And that, my friend, is why there's a stiff resistance.

And a "Town Hall Tips memo" does not equate to "millions of dollars spent whipping up the masses".

Ah.....That would be the $380 million spent then wouldn't it.

[UnderseaLcpl]

Eloquently put, Aramike. I don't entirely agree with you; I wouldn't favor a government option for healthcare of any kind, but reading your post was one of life's simple joys. I swear, if someone as level-headed and well-spoken as you ever gets put into public office, I might regain some faith in our political system.

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

If you think the insurance companies haven't poured millions of dollars into whipping up the masses against real health care reform, you're fooling yourself.

But by all means, go ahead and let millions of people die because your corporate masters want to score cheap political points against the other side.

As much as I hate the idea, I have to jump on the mookie-bashing bandwagon now. In all fairness, mookie is one of the most intelligent liberals I have ever met. If there was ever a hope for liberalism to really take root in the educated public, mookie would be its' scion. Come to think of it, if people like mookie were in office, I might not have such a problem with liberalism.

Unfortunately, this post is an exception. Think for a moment, mookie. We are talking about profit-driven healthcare entities here. Moreover, we are talking about successful (as in....profitable) healthcare insurance providers. The whole freaking insurance industry is based upon risk assessment and analysis. What do you think their natural response to even semi-nationalization of the healthcare sytem is going to be? They aren't going to simply watch as the state cannibalizes their business, they're going to lobby like hell to get into the state healthcare program.

What you call "real" healthcare reform is simply an open invitation for plutocracy and purposeful incompetence. It is an invitation to state- enforced monopoly; the worst possible kind of monopoly.

Are you impressed by the lacklustre systems of socialized healthcare employed by other nations? Are you oblivious to the nigh-universal desireability of the US healthcare system? Do you really think that our heretofore incompetent legislative branch is going to put in place an effective system? Did our legislative system suddenly become motivated by something other than personal gain?

Damnit, mookie, you are smarter than that. Why on God's green earth would you wish to replace an imperfect industry with a fiat imperfect industry!? At least we have a choice in a privatized healthcare sytem.
And don't give me any of that crap about so-called "government option".
Private interests are naturally going to gravitate towards the govenment option. They're paying for it already, so why shouldn't they use it? It is more cost-effective.

What you don't seem to see is how this legislation is perverting the market. The state is going to wreck any semblance of truth in price and supply and demand that remains.

You wouldn't let the state make grocery decisions for you for obvious reasons, so why would you let it make healthcare decisions for you? The state does not play by the same rules as we do. It is, by all measures, a plutocratic entity. It must be guarded against and watched with vigilance.

The state is not a genie which will magically effect reforms upon society. It is an entity that is as self-interested as any person or corporation, and one should be very careful when seeking its' aid.

You wouldn't let the state make grocery decisions for you for obvious reasons,

The state does make grocery decisions for you.

[MothBalls]

Originally Posted by SteamWake

So whos 'manufacturing' things now?

China, South Korea, Japan, basically every country in the world except the US.