The missle defense issue...

SteamWake · 09-18-09, 08:05 AM

I'll be honest I am more or less out of the loop on this one and not sure what to make of it.

I know the Polish are pissed.

Quote:

President Obama dismayed America's allies in Europe and angered his political opponents at home today when he formally ditched plans to set up a missile defence shield in Poland and the Czech Republic.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle6838058.ece

Oberon · 09-18-09, 08:49 AM

Risky move, but there will also be some in Poland and the Czech Republic who are glad that they are not going to be a target.

I think the biggest message to be sent out though is to Moscow, and if Moscow doesn't get the message and cut back a little on the nuclear arms spending then Obama is going to have egg on his face somewhat.

Still, I can't see this changing too much, to be perfectly honest. Although it might damage Obamas foreign credibility a bit amongst former-WP nations.

August · 09-18-09, 11:22 AM

To add insult to injury Obama makes his announcement on the 70th anniversary of the Soviet Unions invasion of Poland.

Schroeder · 09-18-09, 11:31 AM

I don't know. I think it is more important to get Russia on our side to deal with Iran. As long as they don't act with the rest of NATO/UN there is no way to put real pressure on Iran.
If the information that the missile shield would be useless for the next few years anyway are true than I don't see a reason why more realistic short term threats shouldn't be taken care of first.

But the time of the announcement was definitely stupid to say the least.

Shearwater · 09-18-09, 03:02 PM

Dismayed? Rather relieved, at least as far as I am concerned. The only thing it ever succeeded in was giving the Russians a pretext for rearming their own missile force.
Time to set back the doomsday clock by a few seconds.

Hunter · 09-18-09, 03:23 PM

Quote:

To add insult to injury Obama makes his announcement on the 70th anniversary of the Soviet Unions invasion of Poland.

Quote:

I know the Polish are pissed.

I think, President Obama wishing it or not has gave a good advise to Poland to stop behaving like a prostitute offering herself to everyone who can secure her in continious russofobia. Dirty intrigues to push the havyweighters to clash each other didn't brough any good to Poland neither 70 years ago nor in our days. At last, someone who had offered herself to have sex should not claim to be a victim after being f*ed and not being paid.

Becides, Polish piss off only proves that at least in Poland they concidered the 'shild' to be aimed aginst Russia not Iran. Anyone interested to support an ally who intend to provoke world war 3 while offering itself as a valantier target for nucler strike? Don't deal with paranoics.

Sea Demon · 09-18-09, 07:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oberon

Risky move, but there will also be some in Poland and the Czech Republic who are glad that they are not going to be a target.

Your country and theirs will continue to be targets with or without missile defenses. Take the defense away, and it makes the issue even more elementary. I don't know why people across the Atlantic can't seem to grasp that.

I say those in Western Europe who have hampered American efforts at security get what they deserve. I just feel bad for those in Eastern Europe who understand tyrannical government and can see what's happening here.

MothBalls · 09-18-09, 07:48 PM

Why is it up to the US to provide missile defense in Europe?

If there is a threat, shouldn't the EU be the ones to take responsibility for it?

Part of this whole thing I didn't understand is tell everyone your going to build it, and then tell everyone exactly where it's going to be. Might as well put up a big sign:

Bomb here first -----> X <------ Bomb here first

Maybe he didn't cancel it. Maybe they'll build it somewhere else and they just aren't telling everyone.

Either way, when we have literally billions of people in the world who don't have clean water, food, or a decent living environment, maybe it's time all countries spend less on weapons and more on real issue the planet is facing.

09-18-09, 08:46 PM

Quote:

Maybe they'll build it somewhere else and they just aren't telling everyone.

I thought the new proposal was for land based systems in Turkey plus naval systems in the Med, shifting the systems to the areas closer to the threat they are being said to counter

Quote:

I think the biggest message to be sent out though is to Moscow, and if Moscow doesn't get the message and cut back a little on the nuclear arms spending then Obama is going to have egg on his face somewhat.

Well there are three things there, first you have the Russian arms deal with Iran, then there is the vote required in the UN which will need Russian backing, lastly Reagans treaty runs out in december and a new one will have to be negotiated with Russia then.
If this move means leverage for any progress on any single one of those upcoming issues then dropping a plan of questionable value is really a tiny price to pay.

XabbaRus · 09-19-09, 03:06 AM

The Polish aren't pissed, it is Lech Kazincki who is pissed.

As stated the technical reliabilty was suspect, previous tests had been rigged to pass.

Also the range of Iranian missiles is nowhere enough to threaten Europe and definitely not enough to threaten the US.

I personally think the decision to base them in Poland wasn't to threaten Russia as they could be overwhelmed but to piss Russia off, which is what they succeeded in doing. I think the Bush boys wanted to see Russia react, as she unfortunately did, in typical style so they could say "look Russia is still the bad boy." Lech Potato Head Kazincki hates the Russians and is quite intent on dragging things up rather than letting things stay in the past. BTW he does the same thing with the Germans concerning WWII as he does with Russia for the Soviet Era.....

The Poles seem to forget that it was more than just a few polish people who were complicit with the Soviets running the country. Moscow may have pulled the strings but it was Poles on Poles.

XabbaRus · 09-19-09, 03:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sea Demon

Your country and theirs will continue to be targets with or without missile defenses. Take the defense away, and it makes the issue even more elementary. I don't know why people across the Atlantic can't seem to grasp that.

I say those in Western Europe who have hampered American efforts at security get what they deserve. I just feel bad for those in Eastern Europe who understand tyrannical government and can see what's happening here.

One, we didn't ask you set up a missile defence shield for us.

Two, Apart from a few paranoid poles there is no threat from Russia, Russian government though not democratic in the sense of the world is hardly what I call tyrannical and quite frankly can't give a damn about eastern europe. Why do some people insist on thinking that Russia wants to storm back into to Eastern Europe?

The missile shield didn't work, it was a waste of money.

Freiwillige · 09-19-09, 04:16 AM

@Skybird

That is just what a German would say right before der invasion!

All joking aside it sounds like the Poland of the late 1930's, all bluff and bluster.

Skybird · 09-19-09, 04:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freiwillige

@Skybird

That is just what a German would say right before der invasion!

All joking aside it sounds like the Poland of the late 1930's, all bluff and bluster.

"A German"? Most Germans in autumn 1939 did not even know that the Nazis were about to stage something, they did not know that something was coming.

And Germany back then and Germany today - are two VERY different Germanies.

antikristuseke · 09-19-09, 05:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XabbaRus

One, we didn't ask you set up a missile defence shield for us.

Two, Apart from a few paranoid poles there is no threat from Russia, Russian government though not democratic in the sense of the world is hardly what I call tyrannical and quite frankly can't give a damn about eastern europe. Why do some people insist on thinking that Russia wants to storm back into to Eastern Europe?

The missile shield didn't work, it was a waste of money.

This.

The threat of Russian tanks rolling into Europe right now is slim to none, the threat of Russia starting a nuclear war is a lot less than that and in such a case the missile shield would be about as much use as an umbrella during any city bombing raid in WW 2. Though there is some bad blood between Russia and Estonia, no sense in denying that, I dont really see Russia as a credible threat, thoug the propaganda war must go on.

09-18-09, 11:22 AM	#3
August Wayfaring Stranger Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 22,738 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	To add insult to injury Obama makes his announcement on the 70th anniversary of the Soviet Unions invasion of Poland. __________________ Flanked by life and the funeral pyre. Putting on a show for you to see.

09-18-09, 11:31 AM	#4
Schroeder Navy Seal Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Banana Republic of Germany Posts: 6,170 Downloads: 62 Uploads: 0	I don't know. I think it is more important to get Russia on our side to deal with Iran. As long as they don't act with the rest of NATO/UN there is no way to put real pressure on Iran. If the information that the missile shield would be useless for the next few years anyway are true than I don't see a reason why more realistic short term threats shouldn't be taken care of first. But the time of the announcement was definitely stupid to say the least. __________________ Putting Germ back into Germany.

09-19-09, 03:06 AM	#10
XabbaRus Navy Seal Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 5,330 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	The Polish aren't pissed, it is Lech Kazincki who is pissed. As stated the technical reliabilty was suspect, previous tests had been rigged to pass. Also the range of Iranian missiles is nowhere enough to threaten Europe and definitely not enough to threaten the US. I personally think the decision to base them in Poland wasn't to threaten Russia as they could be overwhelmed but to piss Russia off, which is what they succeeded in doing. I think the Bush boys wanted to see Russia react, as she unfortunately did, in typical style so they could say "look Russia is still the bad boy." Lech Potato Head Kazincki hates the Russians and is quite intent on dragging things up rather than letting things stay in the past. BTW he does the same thing with the Germans concerning WWII as he does with Russia for the Soviet Era..... The Poles seem to forget that it was more than just a few polish people who were complicit with the Soviets running the country. Moscow may have pulled the strings but it was Poles on Poles. __________________

09-18-09, 08:49 AM	#2
Oberon Lucky Jack Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 25,976 Downloads: 61 Uploads: 20	Risky move, but there will also be some in Poland and the Czech Republic who are glad that they are not going to be a target. I think the biggest message to be sent out though is to Moscow, and if Moscow doesn't get the message and cut back a little on the nuclear arms spending then Obama is going to have egg on his face somewhat. Still, I can't see this changing too much, to be perfectly honest. Although it might damage Obamas foreign credibility a bit amongst former-WP nations.

09-18-09, 03:02 PM	#5
Shearwater Captain Join Date: May 2009 Location: SUBSIM Radio Room (kinda obvious, isn't it) Posts: 522 Downloads: 27 Uploads: 0	Dismayed? Rather relieved, at least as far as I am concerned. The only thing it ever succeeded in was giving the Russians a pretext for rearming their own missile force. Time to set back the doomsday clock by a few seconds.

09-18-09, 07:48 PM	#8
MothBalls Ace of the Deep Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 1,012 Downloads: 20 Uploads: 0	Why is it up to the US to provide missile defense in Europe? If there is a threat, shouldn't the EU be the ones to take responsibility for it? Part of this whole thing I didn't understand is tell everyone your going to build it, and then tell everyone exactly where it's going to be. Might as well put up a big sign: Bomb here first -----> X <------ Bomb here first Maybe he didn't cancel it. Maybe they'll build it somewhere else and they just aren't telling everyone. Either way, when we have literally billions of people in the world who don't have clean water, food, or a decent living environment, maybe it's time all countries spend less on weapons and more on real issue the planet is facing.

09-19-09, 04:16 AM	#12
Freiwillige The Old Man Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Phx. Az Posts: 1,458 Downloads: 24 Uploads: 0	@Skybird That is just what a German would say right before der invasion! All joking aside it sounds like the Poland of the late 1930's, all bluff and bluster.