One of the few opportunities when I agree and support a cause driven by the left

[Skybird]

http://www.spiegel.de/international/...621281,00.html

The city-state's government argues that all students, regardless of their cultural or ethnic background, should learn a common set of values.

And that is correct. this is one nation, one country, and it is meant to be a secular country with a separation between church and state, religion and politics. no religion shall have the right to demand the state fostering or intervening in favour of it'S own interests, and no state-run platforms and offices should give any religion a platform to present itself, or assist in it'S power-interests. Different beliefs of people should not give anybody the right to demand that the rules of the state and the habits and rules of cultural and social functions of living-together inside this state get distorted and changed to his taste. And if people want to see religious classes - this decision and the current school model hinders nobody to join a religious class anyway - voluntarily!

Of course, the church nevertheless in Germany is in a luxurious position to be supported and payed by the state. Build a hospital, pay it with 90% tax money and 10% church money - and hand it over the the church afterwards, calling it a church-owned, Christian hospital. Massive tax reliefs for the church, and a mandatory church tax to be payed by everybody not leaving the church, like in the medieval. Gotta love it!

As much as I attack Islam, I want to see the power-basis of the church being brought down to ruins, too. Islam alone is not the complete problem, and it cannot be solved if being taken for itself anymore. Religion and it'S institutions and politics, it'S claim to be in power and control over people, and the many priviliges it claims without deserving any of them - that is the problem. And in case of this almost minor issue in Berlin, at least for once reason has succeeded. If you have Muslim classes, Protestantic classes and Catholic classes (why no Jewish classes, Buddhist classes, Atheist classes and Hindu classes, btw?), you do not do anything for leading people together, but you separate them. Our constitution is not depending on the Churches teaching anyway, but neverthless it is depending on a certain set of principles and ethical rules that should be understood to be non-negotiable, and that necessarily exclude - and must exclude! - other rules that are in violation of it. that therefore instead of confession-oriented religious classes a confession-neutral teaching of ethical questions in general, independant from a person's beliefs, is mandatory, passes as healthy reason.

Of course the losers of the vote now call Betrayal!, and promise to carry on to fight, and criticise the senate for having launched an advertising campaign like the initiators of the opposing Pro-Reli-movement also have run a campaign, tells something about the blind dogmatism of some minds. some even have threatened to bring it as a crime against humanity to the highest EU courts - tells you somethign about the level of reason in there argumentation. That Germany has been influenced by the christian historic culture and values, does not mean that the Federal Republic has been founded on the basis of the churche's dogma, or in explicit reference to christian ideology. nowhere it is said in our constitution that we should understand Germany to be a Christian country that has an obligation to serve the interests of the Christian church, or that the church should have a say in running germany, and running national politics. This can be tolerated only where it does not violate the principle of secularism, and does not lead to church interests being pushed by abusing public institutions. Therefore, even as a schoolboy I felt that religious classes shall have no room whatever at public schools on a mandatory basis - but what people do voluntarily - is not something I am interested in.

And in Berlin, before and after this referendum everybody still is free to join religious classes - voluntarily, but not mandatorily. Where this is not satisfying for some, one must suspect that they are about blind ideology only, but not about the best interest for the public, our children, and our society.

In Berlin, even some christian priests have supported this - the senate's - argument. Needless to say that now they are under fire by some of the higher-ranking zealots in their hierarchy.

In the other federal states of Germany, Religion is still listed as a madatory confessional course. the humanistic association in Germany now hopes to launch a nation-wide public debate about this privilege of religions.

P.S. the institution that claims itself to be the indispensable standard for any morals and ethics anbd that yells so loud for religious classes being promoted by the state, is the same institution doing for example this (and so many examples like this could be listed):
http://www.spiegel.de/international/...620925,00.html

[Frame57]

Makes me wonder if you had a BAD experience with a priest when you were a boy.

[SteamWake]

Help me out here cause Im confused.

Is the 'left' in germany the conservative patry?

Because I believed Skybird to be decidedly liberal.

[Schroeder]

Well actually all religious classes were voluntary were I went to school. You could either do the religious stuff or something called "Werte und Normen" (might translate into "Values and Norms").

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Schroeder

Well actually all religious classes were voluntary were I went to school. You could either do the religious stuff or something called "Werte und Normen" (might translate into "Values and Norms&quot.

School has changed drastically in Germany over the past 25 years. I finished Abitur in 1985, and changes came in several different waves of politic and pedagogic experiments since then (which all failed, imo). What age are you? Maybe that explains the differences in our experiences. Back at my time, in three different federal states and 4 different schools that I witnessed, religion always was meant to be mandatory, either Protestantic or Catholic. You needed a special request by the parents that needed to be accepted by the school's director, in order to get freed from the duty to go there. I did it my own way, although not with the explicit intention to get freed: I asked so many and intense critical questions that I got kicked out for the remaining year, in three classes. There was a school conference, my parents had to talk with the director, they refused for principal reasons to sign a declaration that they were asking the school to free their son from religious classes for confessional reasons (although back then they still were members of the church), and a lot of further tam-tam took place. It must not be pointed out that I remained unimpressed, and they finally gave up and simply fired me from all religious classes to come, treating the case silently as if my parents had requested it. It seemed to me a critical reflection of religion and it's institutions was not welcomed. There is nothing like starting young

Oh, and I talked my parents into leaving church membership behind, some years later.

[FIREWALL]

@ SkyBird Is this just a case of " I just ate a sack of lemons " before comeing online here ?

[Thomen]

Originally Posted by Schroeder

Well actually all religious classes were voluntary were I went to school. You could either do the religious stuff or something called "Werte und Normen" (might translate into "Values and Norms").

Same here, and I finished in '89.

[Zachstar]

Originally Posted by SteamWake

Help me out here cause Im confused.

Is the 'left' in germany the conservative patry?

Because I believed Skybird to be decidedly liberal.

From what I have seen Skybird is actually right wing. Just a more sane type of right wing.

[Skybird]

Wowh, in just one thread I have been suspected to be a leftwinger, a liberal, and a rightwinger.

I consider myself as a realist, subscribing to the idea of classic humanism, sane/healthy reason, and a mix of pragmatism and reality-principle. Where all that is to be marked in the political spectrum, is of little interest for me personally. After having been member in a conservative youth organisation of the CDU for a very very small handful of months at the end of my schooltime, which is a quarter of a century ago now, I now avoid any political parties and associations with political establishements at all cost, seeing them not as an option for creating solutions, but as part of the problem(s).

I consider the general spirit of the German and American constitutions (and how I understand them to be meant at the time of their creations) as worthy to be defended against ideas violating them and/or wanting to replace them. These two writings represent two examples setting marks beyond which my tolerance for other ideas and thoughts than my own finds it'S limits.

Originally Posted by Frame57

Makes me wonder if you had a BAD experience with a priest when you were a boy.

It's not like this is the rarest of occurances when dealing with the church.

[Letum]

I'm all for the universal teaching or moral issues and citizenship, so long as
no one is required to follow any particular ethical or political line.

[August]

Originally Posted by Letum

so long as
no one is required to follow any particular ethical or political line.

What you mean like telling the truth, not cheating people? That kind of ethical line?

[Letum]

Originally Posted by Letum

I'm all for the universal teaching or moral issues and citizenship, so long as
no one is required to follow any particular ethical or political line.

Originally Posted by August

What you mean like telling the truth, not cheating people? That kind of ethical line?

I had more controversial issues in mind. Animal rights, abortion, etc.

That said, I suppose if someone wants to be a utter twunt, lie cheat and do
other deplorable, yet legal, things than that is his/her choice and not the
states job to reprimand them, but a matter for his/her conscience, the
people around him/her and/or perhaps a deity.