Careful, Paypal users

Skybird · 03-23-09, 06:48 PM

German economy magazine "WISO" on 2nd channel this evening had a docu on Paypal. While I am not after the examples they listed where the company misbehaved, demanded irrelevant and most personal data from customers and delayed for several months the access to money already transferred - to work with this money themselves and make a profit by the the resulting interests- , the interesting news is with regard to Ebay.

Ebay advertises with Paypal (which is a daughter) that it is a kind of insurance against transactions going wrong, so that you can get back the money, and reverse any business deals, if the bad event takes place, for example yopu get an item which is not matching the description or is a different item. However, be advised that according to the legal situation in Germany, this advertising is misleading, because it has zero, rien, nada, no legal basis at all. Legal situation is such that in Germany you have no legal basis whatever to demand such an financial transaction being reversed, therefore Paypal can decide by their own will whether they follow such a request, or not. You can beg them to stand by their pormises, and when they say No - what they do - then there is nothign you can do about it. Your imagined safety is - illusory.

In other words, the advertised customer protection of Paypal - is nil and void with the German laws. You have no legal demand for it, and Paypal has no obligation fulfill it's advertised service (they even admit it in the small print somehwere, very well hidden), and you should consider their "customer protection" to be a completely arbitrary courtesy. As the examples in the video show, they are willing to refuse that even if they have not checked the circumstances and facts of the situation and objects of dispute between trader and customer.

You might want to check the legal background in your own countries.

German video:
http://www.zdf.de/ZDFmediathek/conte...0?inPopup=true#

I never liked paypal, since it is another location where my banking data and personal data gets collected without me having any legal control over it and without knowing what happens with it and what they do with it and whether they sell it, or not. Ebay pushes Paypal because the trader has to pay a fee up to 4% of the bid - which in other words is another form of income for Ebay. Considering that you have no legal claims for customer protection, no guarantees for safe transaction and no mandatory safety functionwhen using Paypal, but that you get hooked by misleading advertisement and false promises, I do not feel tempted any more now to use it. As far as Ebay is concerned, I have a numerical and relatively low limit beyond which I do no accept deals per Ebay. where there are precious items involved, like two old chess computers, I establish personal contact and make sure that I can pay vis-a-vis and take the item home after having gone there. that is simple and healthy reason, and when you do any different, you should not complain if somebody fools you to your disadvantage.

And that in principal is true with all internet buying.

kiwi_2005 · 03-23-09, 07:52 PM

I dont use paypal and even if i wanted to I can't, my bank dont even recommend it instead i use what we call a debit card & that too is a hit&miss with some online stores.

Onkel Neal · 03-23-09, 10:03 PM

I've used Paypal for 10 years, several thousand transactions, zero problems.

It's no different than credit cards or home equity loans. Some people just have issues.

Skybird · 03-24-09, 05:12 AM

Why do you use it? From a legal perspective, it is NOT safer than regular bank transaction in advance.

It is even worse if oyu do not use it to buy, but to sell. Than you pay them a fee for ... well, essentially for nothing that is legally binding.

Essentially you pay them for hoping they will behave nice in case of trouble. Which thy might. Or might not. Is that worth your money?

To me they are one of these many companies than emerged due to the internet and who pressed themselves between seller and buyer without any real need for another party to interfere there. Afterbuy is another that comes to my mind - always tripling the shipping delays. I love it.

Serious and respectavle shops in the internet trade on the basis of even tighter laws in Germany, than street shops. In Germany, even in cases wehn taking back an item is a question of copurtesy by the street shop, it is mandatory for internet shops to take things back without explanation for 14 days. In the street shop you depend on the cooperation of the shop owner if you want to give something back that is not broken or a case of warranty (warranty: again, he can chose to repair it, he must not take it back for money, or exchnage it), in internetshop you have a legal obligation. Even more, for serious shops it is a question of advertising and forming a reputation not to betray customers, or make them angry. That'S why the shops I used in the past, were top in service. With such shops, Paypal is even more unneeded.

That you use it and made it a habit, does not mean that it is good or needed, Neal.

Maybe it is you having the issue here.

and credit cards: I only use a Visa for internet shops where I have no other choice than credit cards. I never use it elsewhere. Why paying them a fee for putting themselves between me and the transaction partner, taking my money from my hand and giving it to him - and wanting to get payed for that "favour"?

Some modern behaviour patterns are a bit nuts, imo, and often they remain unreflected.

XabbaRus · 03-24-09, 06:28 AM

Well my Visa card never charge me a fee for paying for something. Not on top of what I pay anyway.

The only time they take a fee is if I use my card to get cash which I never do.

Sky if I sell an item through an auction house they charge percentage fee. It is how they make money.

I haven't had a problem with paypal on the odd occasion I use it. This seems to me to be another Skybird doom and gloom, everyone is out to get you thread.

Skybird · 03-24-09, 08:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XabbaRus

Sky if I sell an item through an auction house they charge percentage fee. It is how they make money.

At Ebay, if you use paypal, you pay twice. first for the auction at ebay, and then for offering paypal to your customer.

SteamWake · 03-24-09, 08:39 AM

Yes some people have issues with PayPal (raises hand)

Onkel Neal · 03-24-09, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skybird

Why do you use it? From a legal perspective, it is NOT safer than regular bank transaction in advance.

It is a transaction service. Simple. No one pays a fee to send payments, there is a standard fee to receive payments, just like using Mastercard or Visa. No big deal.

Skybird · 03-24-09, 04:32 PM

You try hard to not get the point, hm?

While it is correct what you said, and the general reason in using credit cards in general can be qestioned (for example I never use credit card in stores, as I said, only in internet shopping when I do not wish to miss the item in question and the business model is exclusively credit cards), the ppooint is that Paypal suggests an additonal legal backwards insurance that it does not include. That way there is no point in using paypal instead of regular bank transaction, regarding legal standards it is not any safer. You do not get qany additonal security, nor the legal option for additonal claims if something goes wrong. Especially for the selling party this is bad news - becasue they pay additional fees for a transaction service while beliefving they get something additonal for that fee. But they don't. If you do not get anything additonal for it, why sopen ding additonal money when you already pay regular fees for your banking account or your normal credit card?

Clear now?

03-23-09, 06:48 PM	#1
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,626 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	Careful, Paypal users German economy magazine "WISO" on 2nd channel this evening had a docu on Paypal. While I am not after the examples they listed where the company misbehaved, demanded irrelevant and most personal data from customers and delayed for several months the access to money already transferred - to work with this money themselves and make a profit by the the resulting interests- , the interesting news is with regard to Ebay. Ebay advertises with Paypal (which is a daughter) that it is a kind of insurance against transactions going wrong, so that you can get back the money, and reverse any business deals, if the bad event takes place, for example yopu get an item which is not matching the description or is a different item. However, be advised that according to the legal situation in Germany, this advertising is misleading, because it has zero, rien, nada, no legal basis at all. Legal situation is such that in Germany you have no legal basis whatever to demand such an financial transaction being reversed, therefore Paypal can decide by their own will whether they follow such a request, or not. You can beg them to stand by their pormises, and when they say No - what they do - then there is nothign you can do about it. Your imagined safety is - illusory. In other words, the advertised customer protection of Paypal - is nil and void with the German laws. You have no legal demand for it, and Paypal has no obligation fulfill it's advertised service (they even admit it in the small print somehwere, very well hidden), and you should consider their "customer protection" to be a completely arbitrary courtesy. As the examples in the video show, they are willing to refuse that even if they have not checked the circumstances and facts of the situation and objects of dispute between trader and customer. You might want to check the legal background in your own countries. German video: http://www.zdf.de/ZDFmediathek/conte...0?inPopup=true# I never liked paypal, since it is another location where my banking data and personal data gets collected without me having any legal control over it and without knowing what happens with it and what they do with it and whether they sell it, or not. Ebay pushes Paypal because the trader has to pay a fee up to 4% of the bid - which in other words is another form of income for Ebay. Considering that you have no legal claims for customer protection, no guarantees for safe transaction and no mandatory safety functionwhen using Paypal, but that you get hooked by misleading advertisement and false promises, I do not feel tempted any more now to use it. As far as Ebay is concerned, I have a numerical and relatively low limit beyond which I do no accept deals per Ebay. where there are precious items involved, like two old chess computers, I establish personal contact and make sure that I can pay vis-a-vis and take the item home after having gone there. that is simple and healthy reason, and when you do any different, you should not complain if somebody fools you to your disadvantage. And that in principal is true with all internet buying. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

03-23-09, 07:52 PM	#2
kiwi_2005 Eternal Patrol Join Date: May 2004 Location: Aeoteroa Posts: 7,382 Downloads: 223 Uploads: 1	I dont use paypal and even if i wanted to I can't, my bank dont even recommend it instead i use what we call a debit card & that too is a hit&miss with some online stores. __________________ RIP kiwi_2005 Those who can't laugh at themselves leave the job to others.

03-23-09, 10:03 PM	#3
Onkel Neal Born to Run Silent Join Date: Jan 1997 Location: Cougar Trap, Texas Posts: 21,385 Downloads: 541 Uploads: 224	I've used Paypal for 10 years, several thousand transactions, zero problems. It's no different than credit cards or home equity loans. Some people just have issues. __________________ SUBSIM - 26 Years on the Web

03-24-09, 05:12 AM	#4
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,626 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	Why do you use it? From a legal perspective, it is NOT safer than regular bank transaction in advance. It is even worse if oyu do not use it to buy, but to sell. Than you pay them a fee for ... well, essentially for nothing that is legally binding. Essentially you pay them for hoping they will behave nice in case of trouble. Which thy might. Or might not. Is that worth your money? To me they are one of these many companies than emerged due to the internet and who pressed themselves between seller and buyer without any real need for another party to interfere there. Afterbuy is another that comes to my mind - always tripling the shipping delays. I love it. Serious and respectavle shops in the internet trade on the basis of even tighter laws in Germany, than street shops. In Germany, even in cases wehn taking back an item is a question of copurtesy by the street shop, it is mandatory for internet shops to take things back without explanation for 14 days. In the street shop you depend on the cooperation of the shop owner if you want to give something back that is not broken or a case of warranty (warranty: again, he can chose to repair it, he must not take it back for money, or exchnage it), in internetshop you have a legal obligation. Even more, for serious shops it is a question of advertising and forming a reputation not to betray customers, or make them angry. That'S why the shops I used in the past, were top in service. With such shops, Paypal is even more unneeded. That you use it and made it a habit, does not mean that it is good or needed, Neal. Maybe it is you having the issue here. and credit cards: I only use a Visa for internet shops where I have no other choice than credit cards. I never use it elsewhere. Why paying them a fee for putting themselves between me and the transaction partner, taking my money from my hand and giving it to him - and wanting to get payed for that "favour"? Some modern behaviour patterns are a bit nuts, imo, and often they remain unreflected. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

03-24-09, 06:28 AM	#5
XabbaRus Navy Seal Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 5,330 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	Well my Visa card never charge me a fee for paying for something. Not on top of what I pay anyway. The only time they take a fee is if I use my card to get cash which I never do. Sky if I sell an item through an auction house they charge percentage fee. It is how they make money. I haven't had a problem with paypal on the odd occasion I use it. This seems to me to be another Skybird doom and gloom, everyone is out to get you thread. __________________

03-24-09, 08:39 AM	#7
SteamWake Rear Admiral Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 13,224 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	Yes some people have issues with PayPal (raises hand) __________________ Follow the progress of Mr. Mulligan : http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=147648

03-24-09, 04:32 PM	#9
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,626 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	You try hard to not get the point, hm? While it is correct what you said, and the general reason in using credit cards in general can be qestioned (for example I never use credit card in stores, as I said, only in internet shopping when I do not wish to miss the item in question and the business model is exclusively credit cards), the ppooint is that Paypal suggests an additonal legal backwards insurance that it does not include. That way there is no point in using paypal instead of regular bank transaction, regarding legal standards it is not any safer. You do not get qany additonal security, nor the legal option for additonal claims if something goes wrong. Especially for the selling party this is bad news - becasue they pay additional fees for a transaction service while beliefving they get something additonal for that fee. But they don't. If you do not get anything additonal for it, why sopen ding additonal money when you already pay regular fees for your banking account or your normal credit card? Clear now? __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.