Japanese Task Force Compostition, Formations?

jazzabilly · 01-25-09, 07:52 PM

I have encountered (3 times in seperate careers) quite a few Japanese TF's. Twice I have managed to sink Hiryu Class CV's with very little difficulty. Now, I would normally never complain about bagging a CV, but...

In both instances they were travelling at fairly low speed (14 kts the 1st time, 11 kts the second) in Line-Ahead formation with one DD ahead and one or two behind with one roving DD.

It looked like this the last time:

DD (Kamikaze)
CA (Maya Class)
CV (Hiryu)
CV (Hiryu)
CA (Maya)
DD (Kamikaze)

It wasn't hard to nail either one; it looked like an IJN review "Sail Past".

From a realism standpoint, I find it hard to believe that the IJN would trust such important assets to the care of only 3 DD's, in such a loosey-goosey formation.

My mods are listed below.

A Very Super Market · 01-25-09, 08:58 PM

Japanese weren't really in on ASW now were they? They mostly focused their escorts on guarding against surface ships or planes. They didn't have that many DDs to spare anyways.

Torplexed · 01-25-09, 09:08 PM

As of December 7th, 1941 Japan had 110 destroyers. There were enough to go around for fleet protection anyway.

tater · 01-25-09, 09:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A Very Super Market

Japanese weren't really in on ASW now were they? They mostly focused their escorts on guarding against surface ships or planes. They didn't have that many DDs to spare anyways.

Their DDs were ASW capable, their principal failing was in escorting merchants (not utilizing convoys).

Note, of course, that no Navy would be providing much in the way of ASW capability above the speed where their hydrophones worked until after the fact except via ASW air patrols, or later, surface-search radar.

At 11+ knots, IJN ASW would be blind, anyway, in other words.

jazzabilly · 01-25-09, 10:05 PM

Thanks, everyone for replies.

So what you cats are saying is that the lack of any really useful defensive formation that is represented in the game is consistent with how the IJN operated?

Not surprising, I guess, that they lost 8 carriers of various types to subs.

I forgot to mention; I've also sunk a BB in the same fashion.

Torplexed · 01-25-09, 10:14 PM

A lot probably depends on how the carrier is being used. In 1942, when the Japanese carrier Zuikaku left Truk for Japan after the Coral Sea operation she only had a screen of three destroyers. The damaged Shokaku about the same. In the preceding Coral Sea fight as a task force they had a screen of 6 destroyers (and two heavy cruisers).

rubenandthejets · 01-25-09, 11:16 PM

I seem to recall from my readings that the Japanese formations usually had a spear head shape, with the DDs ahead and flanking left and right of the capital ships.
eg:

....dd.....................................dd
dd cv ca ca dd only 2 dds then ca cv ca
....dd.................................... dd

With active carriers the'yd have the dds as pickets to rescue any ditchers. Getting to and from the battle zone this seems to be reasonable.

The US navy was very keen on "line ahead" with dds in front and rear, for its non carrier task forces (bb,ca etc). It's a holdover from the old "form a battle line" mentality of the "big gun" school.

The big box of a dd screen, ca's (especially aaa ca's) in closer and then the carriers in the center was standard, with a dd or two close in for ditchers when launching / recovering aircraft.

01-25-09, 07:52 PM	#1
jazzabilly Planesman Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Vancouver BC Posts: 186 Downloads: 11 Uploads: 0	Japanese Task Force Compostition, Formations? I have encountered (3 times in seperate careers) quite a few Japanese TF's. Twice I have managed to sink Hiryu Class CV's with very little difficulty. Now, I would normally never complain about bagging a CV, but... In both instances they were travelling at fairly low speed (14 kts the 1st time, 11 kts the second) in Line-Ahead formation with one DD ahead and one or two behind with one roving DD. It looked like this the last time: DD (Kamikaze) CA (Maya Class) CV (Hiryu) CV (Hiryu) CA (Maya) DD (Kamikaze) It wasn't hard to nail either one; it looked like an IJN review "Sail Past". From a realism standpoint, I find it hard to believe that the IJN would trust such important assets to the care of only 3 DD's, in such a loosey-goosey formation. My mods are listed below. __________________ If it's a fair fight, then you didn't plan it properly. ==================================== Last edited by jazzabilly; 01-25-09 at 08:02 PM.

01-25-09, 08:58 PM	#2
A Very Super Market The Old Man Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Deep in the Wild Canadian suburbs. Posts: 1,468 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Japanese weren't really in on ASW now were they? They mostly focused their escorts on guarding against surface ships or planes. They didn't have that many DDs to spare anyways. __________________ The entire German garrison of Vanviken, right here in your thread!

01-25-09, 09:08 PM	#3
Torplexed Let's Sink Sumptin' ! Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 5,823 Downloads: 43 Uploads: 0	As of December 7th, 1941 Japan had 110 destroyers. There were enough to go around for fleet protection anyway. __________________ --Mobilis in Mobili--

01-25-09, 10:05 PM	#5
jazzabilly Planesman Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Vancouver BC Posts: 186 Downloads: 11 Uploads: 0	Thanks, everyone for replies. So what you cats are saying is that the lack of any really useful defensive formation that is represented in the game is consistent with how the IJN operated? Not surprising, I guess, that they lost 8 carriers of various types to subs. I forgot to mention; I've also sunk a BB in the same fashion. __________________ If it's a fair fight, then you didn't plan it properly. ====================================

01-25-09, 10:14 PM	#6
Torplexed Let's Sink Sumptin' ! Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 5,823 Downloads: 43 Uploads: 0	A lot probably depends on how the carrier is being used. In 1942, when the Japanese carrier Zuikaku left Truk for Japan after the Coral Sea operation she only had a screen of three destroyers. The damaged Shokaku about the same. In the preceding Coral Sea fight as a task force they had a screen of 6 destroyers (and two heavy cruisers). __________________ --Mobilis in Mobili--

01-25-09, 11:16 PM	#7
rubenandthejets 中国水兵 Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 279 Downloads: 20 Uploads: 0	I seem to recall from my readings that the Japanese formations usually had a spear head shape, with the DDs ahead and flanking left and right of the capital ships. eg: ....dd.....................................dd dd cv ca ca dd only 2 dds then ca cv ca ....dd.................................... dd With active carriers the'yd have the dds as pickets to rescue any ditchers. Getting to and from the battle zone this seems to be reasonable. The US navy was very keen on "line ahead" with dds in front and rear, for its non carrier task forces (bb,ca etc). It's a holdover from the old "form a battle line" mentality of the "big gun" school. The big box of a dd screen, ca's (especially aaa ca's) in closer and then the carriers in the center was standard, with a dd or two close in for ditchers when launching / recovering aircraft.