(WIP)Submarine Draft Fix

ancient46 · 01-01-09, 04:12 AM

I have been working on a fix for the problem of incorrect position of the submarines in the water. I have been comparing Screen Shots of the subs, making adjustments to match the pictures of the WW2 subs I have collected from the net. Here are three composite pictures of the work so far.

I started with the stock game but I will have a version for RFB 1.52. I don't use TMO but I could easily make one if someone wants it. Once I get a draft number to match the photo, it can be used in any MOD.

The Balao Class- notice the two torpedo tubes out of the water in the Stock Shot

The Gato Class- one Torpedo tube out of the water

The Gar and Tambor Classes- One torpedo tube out of the water

keltos01 · 01-01-09, 05:09 AM

Good job !

keltos

looney · 01-01-09, 05:59 AM

Aren't those pictures taken with a full load of fish?? Compared to of being completely empty? The subs where terrible in depth keeping when moving slowly.

Soundman · 01-01-09, 09:23 AM

I'm very interested in a TMO version. Looks good.

ridgewayranger · 01-01-09, 11:29 AM

Hi There,
With or without fish makes no difference when the boat is in diving trim. Water is used to replace the weight of fish, otherwise she would never get down! When a torpedo is fired an automatic compensating system allows water equivalent to the weight lost to enter a tank. Likewise when a bow cap is opened she doesn't suddenly get heavy 'cos water is blown into the tube from said tank.
RR

ancient46 · 01-01-09, 01:03 PM

I ignored all the just after launch pictures and concentrated on the ones of the ships at sea and on sea trials. Those pictures are all similar with small variations due to wave conditions and ship speed. As a check I looked at post commission in port pictures to confirm the look of the subs in the water. The pictures I used are representative of that work and the clearest views to use. Many of the other photos needed manipulation to enhance the details to confirm my determination of the proper look. The seas had to be quite rough in order to show the top torpedo tube.

As a side note, the stock screenshots shown are similar to the post launch pictures taken after the buntings were removed.

For the screen shots I started a career when each sub class was available, calmed the sea and saved. I restarted the saves and took the stock screen shots. I loaded the mod and used the same saves to take the screen shots under the same conditions. I used FooBor's sub skins but compared the results with a completely stock skin set and saw no difference. PE4 was used because I could not get calm seas with the stock game setup for consistent results.

dean_acheson · 01-03-09, 04:19 PM

I'd be interested in a TMO version

Scharnhorst1943 · 01-03-09, 06:04 PM

I have a quick question about this mod.

First of all, looks EXCELLENT and I am looking forward to it. Secondly, will this mod be able to fix the way the sub dives? In current stock, the bow is the last part of the deck to go under. It would be nice to have the bow be the first part to go under ... If this mod does not address this problem, is there another mod that does?

gimpy117 · 01-04-09, 12:26 AM

would be nice to see a nose down dive

NEON DEON · 01-04-09, 02:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scharnhorst1943

I have a quick question about this mod.

First of all, looks EXCELLENT and I am looking forward to it. Secondly, will this mod be able to fix the way the sub dives? In current stock, the bow is the last part of the deck to go under. It would be nice to have the bow be the first part to go under ... If this mod does not address this problem, is there another mod that does?

I dont know about the bow going under first in a fleet boat. If you take a close look at a fleet boat down its lenght you will notice that the ships bow rises up from the hull. So I am thinking it would be hard for the boat to get the prow under before the stern.

Take a look at the second to last picture on this page of the Gato.

http://www.navsource.org/archives/08/08212a.htm

The deck clearly rises slowly upward almost the entire length.

I am thinking thats because the boat was not designed to be a true submersible.

Nose it down too much and you might have the props comming partly out the water.

PS:

If you call battle stations all ahead flank in a Balao and give it time to build up speed then call crash dive the nose will go under first as the stern rises a bit. At least with the boat lowered it does.

gimpy117 · 01-04-09, 11:59 AM

hmm....we need diving photos to know for sure...

skookum · 01-10-09, 03:54 PM

Any progress to report?

Sledgehammer427 · 01-10-09, 08:35 PM

about the nose-down diving thing.

the fleet boats weigh far too much and are too wide to do a nose-down dive that i imagine.
when a fleet boat, or any submarine for that matter crash dives, its very hard to get under until the deck is under. then, it hydroplanes itself deeper. thats with the planes doing all they can to push the nose down when a crash dive is ordered, then they taper off when the Conning tower is awash.

edjcox · 01-11-09, 02:23 AM

Jerry Lewis once clinged to the Shears of a sub in a dive mode... Wonder if anyone knows where that sequenc could be found. Viewing it gives you a rel sense of how a Gato dives in a normal dive...

Diving is initiated by flooding a negative bouyancy tank and putting the forward and aft planes on a downward pitch. The rapidity of the dive can be increased with plane pitch, boat speed and additional negative bouyancy acquisiton by flooding..

The whole idea is to minimize the amount of compressed air needed to resurface. Subs were kept slightly positive boyancy the majority of the time fo safety reasons. In a combat dive safety is at depth so certain risks where accepted for a rapid immersion in to the safety of the deep. Blowing dray a flooded tank is costly in compressed air... Intitial surface psoition is then improved by useing the turbo blowers to fillout the bouyancy by blowing the tanks with shut valves... The whole idea of the Christmas tree is to visually see that water is able to flood and air is able to be retained on command...

Using elemnets of the boat like flooding empty forward tubes could also increase onces dive angle to get that bow down look some of the Simers are looking for...

ancient46 · 02-04-09, 02:31 PM

Well I came across these pictures of fleet boats diving on exercises http://www.navsource.org/archives/08/0818615.jpg Looks to me like fleet boats normally dive stern down first almost like modeled in the game. Maybe a sub dives faster with a lesser loss of momentum if the bow is up to provide less drag as it dives. Maybe some hydraulic experts on the forum can answer that question for us.

Progress report: I am done testing the sub draft and am working on a new addition. During testing I noticed another little problem that I needed to fix, Periscope depth. I am now setting the periscope depth to put the bottom of the final tapered section just below the water line. The light colored portion of the periscope will no longer show above water. I will be done with this in a day or two depending on the extent of the admiral's "To Do" list. This is more in line with pictures of submerged subs I have seen. Now if it would be possible for the environmental geniuses to add a wake to the periscope it would greatly improve the games look.

01-01-09, 04:12 AM	#1
ancient46 Officer Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 239 Downloads: 108 Uploads: 1	(WIP)Submarine Draft Fix I have been working on a fix for the problem of incorrect position of the submarines in the water. I have been comparing Screen Shots of the subs, making adjustments to match the pictures of the WW2 subs I have collected from the net. Here are three composite pictures of the work so far. I started with the stock game but I will have a version for RFB 1.52. I don't use TMO but I could easily make one if someone wants it. Once I get a draft number to match the photo, it can be used in any MOD. The Balao Class- notice the two torpedo tubes out of the water in the Stock Shot The Gato Class- one Torpedo tube out of the water The Gar and Tambor Classes- One torpedo tube out of the water

01-01-09, 05:09 AM	#2
keltos01 Silent Hunter Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Milan Italy Posts: 4,999 Downloads: 114 Uploads: 18	Good job ! keltos __________________ "Honorable Builder of Sinking Ships"

01-01-09, 01:03 PM	#6
ancient46 Officer Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 239 Downloads: 108 Uploads: 1	I ignored all the just after launch pictures and concentrated on the ones of the ships at sea and on sea trials. Those pictures are all similar with small variations due to wave conditions and ship speed. As a check I looked at post commission in port pictures to confirm the look of the subs in the water. The pictures I used are representative of that work and the clearest views to use. Many of the other photos needed manipulation to enhance the details to confirm my determination of the proper look. The seas had to be quite rough in order to show the top torpedo tube. As a side note, the stock screenshots shown are similar to the post launch pictures taken after the buntings were removed. For the screen shots I started a career when each sub class was available, calmed the sea and saved. I restarted the saves and took the stock screen shots. I loaded the mod and used the same saves to take the screen shots under the same conditions. I used FooBor's sub skins but compared the results with a completely stock skin set and saw no difference. PE4 was used because I could not get calm seas with the stock game setup for consistent results. Last edited by ancient46; 01-01-09 at 01:03 PM.

01-04-09, 12:26 AM	#9
gimpy117 Ocean Warrior Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Kalamazoo, MI Posts: 3,243 Downloads: 108 Uploads: 0	would be nice to see a nose down dive __________________ Member of the Subsim Zombie Army

01-04-09, 11:59 AM	#11
gimpy117 Ocean Warrior Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Kalamazoo, MI Posts: 3,243 Downloads: 108 Uploads: 0	hmm....we need diving photos to know for sure... __________________ Member of the Subsim Zombie Army

01-01-09, 05:59 AM	#3
looney Commodore Join Date: May 2007 Location: Sneek, The Netherlands Posts: 635 Downloads: 43 Uploads: 0	Aren't those pictures taken with a full load of fish?? Compared to of being completely empty? The subs where terrible in depth keeping when moving slowly.

01-01-09, 09:23 AM	#4
Soundman Commodore Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Orlando, Fl Posts: 617 Downloads: 60 Uploads: 0	I'm very interested in a TMO version. Looks good.

01-01-09, 11:29 AM	#5
ridgewayranger Frogman Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Ipswich, England Posts: 302 Downloads: 281 Uploads: 0	Hi There, With or without fish makes no difference when the boat is in diving trim. Water is used to replace the weight of fish, otherwise she would never get down! When a torpedo is fired an automatic compensating system allows water equivalent to the weight lost to enter a tank. Likewise when a bow cap is opened she doesn't suddenly get heavy 'cos water is blown into the tube from said tank. RR

01-03-09, 04:19 PM	#7
dean_acheson Ace of the Deep Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Midwest - USA Posts: 1,057 Downloads: 42 Uploads: 0	I'd be interested in a TMO version

01-03-09, 06:04 PM	#8
Scharnhorst1943 Seaman Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 40 Downloads: 114 Uploads: 0	I have a quick question about this mod. First of all, looks EXCELLENT and I am looking forward to it. Secondly, will this mod be able to fix the way the sub dives? In current stock, the bow is the last part of the deck to go under. It would be nice to have the bow be the first part to go under ... If this mod does not address this problem, is there another mod that does?

01-10-09, 03:54 PM	#12
skookum Weps Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 351 Downloads: 35 Uploads: 0	Any progress to report? __________________ Last edited by skookum; 01-10-09 at 04:14 PM.

01-10-09, 08:35 PM	#13
Sledgehammer427 PacWagon Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Drinking coffee and staring at trees in Massachusetts Posts: 2,908 Downloads: 287 Uploads: 0	about the nose-down diving thing. the fleet boats weigh far too much and are too wide to do a nose-down dive that i imagine. when a fleet boat, or any submarine for that matter crash dives, its very hard to get under until the deck is under. then, it hydroplanes itself deeper. thats with the planes doing all they can to push the nose down when a crash dive is ordered, then they taper off when the Conning tower is awash. __________________ Cold Waters Voice Crew - Fire Control Officer Cmdr O. Myers - C/O USS Nautilus (SS-168) 114,000 tons sunk - 4 Spec Ops completed V-boat Nutcase - Need supplies? Japanese garrison on a small island in the way? Just give us a call! D4C!

01-11-09, 02:23 AM	#14
edjcox Engineer Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Shang Gri La Posts: 219 Downloads: 61 Uploads: 0	Dive Video Jerry Lewis once clinged to the Shears of a sub in a dive mode... Wonder if anyone knows where that sequenc could be found. Viewing it gives you a rel sense of how a Gato dives in a normal dive... Diving is initiated by flooding a negative bouyancy tank and putting the forward and aft planes on a downward pitch. The rapidity of the dive can be increased with plane pitch, boat speed and additional negative bouyancy acquisiton by flooding.. The whole idea is to minimize the amount of compressed air needed to resurface. Subs were kept slightly positive boyancy the majority of the time fo safety reasons. In a combat dive safety is at depth so certain risks where accepted for a rapid immersion in to the safety of the deep. Blowing dray a flooded tank is costly in compressed air... Intitial surface psoition is then improved by useing the turbo blowers to fillout the bouyancy by blowing the tanks with shut valves... The whole idea of the Christmas tree is to visually see that water is able to flood and air is able to be retained on command... Using elemnets of the boat like flooding empty forward tubes could also increase onces dive angle to get that bow down look some of the Simers are looking for... __________________ EJ Cox http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z...jcox/usaCa.gif

02-04-09, 02:31 PM	#15
ancient46 Officer Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 239 Downloads: 108 Uploads: 1	Nose down diving? Well I came across these pictures of fleet boats diving on exercises http://www.navsource.org/archives/08/0818615.jpg Looks to me like fleet boats normally dive stern down first almost like modeled in the game. Maybe a sub dives faster with a lesser loss of momentum if the bow is up to provide less drag as it dives. Maybe some hydraulic experts on the forum can answer that question for us. Progress report: I am done testing the sub draft and am working on a new addition. During testing I noticed another little problem that I needed to fix, Periscope depth. I am now setting the periscope depth to put the bottom of the final tapered section just below the water line. The light colored portion of the periscope will no longer show above water. I will be done with this in a day or two depending on the extent of the admiral's "To Do" list. This is more in line with pictures of submerged subs I have seen. Now if it would be possible for the environmental geniuses to add a wake to the periscope it would greatly improve the games look. Last edited by ancient46; 02-04-09 at 02:44 PM.