Stranger than you CAN imagine

Rockin Robbins · 10-23-08, 06:23 PM

I think it was Issac Asimov who said that the universe was not only stranger than we believe but stranger than we CAN believe. Follow me into the twilight zone.

We have long been using Dick O'Kane with the instruction, bearing set, range who cares? But because of the short distance the torpedo travels straight out of the tube before it turns to the set bearing, a distance called reach, a slight angle is created from the apparent origin of the torpedo's path and the position of our submarine when the torpedo is fired. That means that the range in the TDC actually is meaningful even in a point and shoot shot....

Yeah, that's what I said too. OK, how bad can this get? Can't be too bad, right? So I set up an 8000 yard shooting gallery with tankers arrayed about every 10 degrees, with the center one on the zero bearing. Let's make boom-booms! This is MY kind of experimentation.

Through this whole thing I am using slow speed torpedoes for max range. Stupid me!

First, let's send six torpedoes up the zero line. We'll fire two on the default zero range, two on 3475, the manual setting I always use for Dick O'Kane, set 2 for 3000 and 2 for 8000 yards. Shoot times six!

Nasty finding number one! Of six torpedoes shot, only two reached 8000 yards. The rest crapped out between 3000 and 4500 yards. Also the torpedoes all ran different speeds, making spacing really important to tell which torpedoes were which. Which ones reached the target? I don't know. Set 'em up again.

This time I shot only the first two, set at zero range, up the zero line 30 seconds apart. They both made 8000 yards this time and they......both......missed right by about a target length and a half. What the?????

Tried if again and again. When the torpedoes reached the 8000 yards (about half the time) they all missed right. These are zero gyro angle shots! Somehow the zero range predictable alters the path to the right far enough to miss consistently at 8000 yards. Play the scary music.

Any other range went up the zero line and struck the target if the torpedo got that far. I learned that experimenting at 8000 yards was darn frustrating and I'd better shorten up the shooting gallery. So I did.

I set up a new one at 3200 yards with target tankers on the 315, 320. 334, 346, 0, 14, 24, 35 and 49 bearings. That is more like it! I sent three torpedoes up the zero line with 1475, 2650 and 5008 ranges. What do you think happened?

Well that was refreshingly expected. They were very similar in path and all struck pretty much the identical spot.

Now let us leave the bounds of sanity and enter the darker realms. We'll aim at the 49º bearing boat. What happens with a shot set to 9843 yards?

It's a clean miss! The torpedo goes straight to the end of its reach, turns right but stops turning early so that 9843 yards it crosses the set bearing. Anywhere before there it's going to miss left by varying amounts depending on the distance traveled. So what ARE the allowable parameters at 3200 yards? I decided to find out by experimentation with the game, since a mathematical proof does not have to hold true there, especially after the zero bearing zero range shot consistently missed right earlier. I need a drink. NOW!

Turns out that a range of 5582 yards will just clip the left end of the target.

Of course, the correct range nails it

And 2625 clips the right end.

So there you have it. For a target sitting at bearing 49º the margin of error for this tanker was -575 to +2382 yards, 80% to 174% of the actual range would hit the target. Lesser deviations from zero bearing would be more tolerant, greater bearings would be even less tolerant to proper range being input into the TDC.

The conclusions we can make here are the following. Don't shoot Dick O'Kane shots from more than 2000 yards, with torpedo gyro angles much above 15º left or right. Between 345 and 15, you'll get your hits. Outside that you better put a rough range estimate into the TDC. There's plenty of slop, but the more accurate the better.

Inside of 2000 yards don't change a thing. You're a deadeye killer there. Proceed as normal. Of course you realize that one sonar ping will peg that range close enough for anybody's liking and you can shoot out to 3000 yards with perfect accuracy. Well not perfect but nobody on the target will care that the shot landed ten yards off the aiming point.

And don't bother shooting beyond 3000 yards with the stock game. Half the slow speed torpedoes run out of juice between 3000 and 4000 yards. You can't sink ships with a wimpy torpedo. Luke, what about RFB? Ducimus is in the slammer, so does anybody know the score with TMO?

Want to play? Here's my 3200 Yard Shooting Gallery for your listening and dancing enjoyment. Unzip into your Wolves of the Pacific\data\single missions folder.

Arclight · 10-25-08, 02:45 PM

Haha, told you range was relevant. :p

Nice write up.

Sledgehammer427 · 10-25-08, 04:01 PM

and thats why i hate broad angles...

hey Rockin Robbins...i need some help with a term paper :rotfl:
just kidding

Rockin Robbins · 10-25-08, 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sledgehammer427

and thats why i hate broad angles...

hey Rockin Robbins...i need some help with a term paper :rotfl:
just kidding

Man! I was thinking that I had finally written something that NOBODY cared about.

Arclight, the general principle still holds. If you're shooting under 2000 yards, that's all but about 3 of my shots ever, it really doesn't matter so long as you pull the triangle down and have the normal 1475 yards in the system. If you're shooting 3000 yards or more, find a way to put 3000 yards in the TDC. That's close enough.

If you're shooting 4000 yards or more it doesn't matter because half your torpedoes aren't getting there anyway.:rotfl: That was the real shocker for me.

Arclight · 10-25-08, 06:07 PM

I know it doesn't really matter. I'm just a perfectionist, so I couldn't resist.

I always set the range as high as I can get it (requires some fidling with the stadimeter). Then the "deviation" is never more then the distance the tubes are from the centerline (at least when firing at 0 bearing

). At first I set the range as low as it would go, but then you notice the issue when firing at longer ranges.

Like you suggested, a quick ping for range will solve the issue.

But I never noticed torpedo's running out of steam too early. :hmm:
Longest (RFB) shot for me was 4 fish running more then 6000 yards, with 2 hits and actually detonating, the other 2 going in front and behind the target.

Was this while you were testing the new RFB?

Orion2012 · 10-25-08, 06:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arclight

I know it doesn't really matter. I'm just a perfectionist, so I couldn't resist.

I always set the range as high as I can get it (requires some fidling with the stadimeter). Then the "deviation" is never more then the distance the tubes are from the centerline (at least when firing at 0 bearing

). At first I set the range as low as it would go, but then you notice the issue when firing at longer ranges.

Like you suggested, a quick ping for range will solve the issue.

But I never noticed torpedo's running out of steam too early. :hmm:
Longest (RFB) shot for me was 4 fish running more then 6000 yards, with 2 hits and actually detonating, the other 2 going in front and behind the target.

Was this while you were testing the new RFB?

If it was I've had a few fail to start, or the motor dies before they reach 100 yards, but haven't really shot over 1800 yards.

Those pictures though aren't from the RFB 1.52 unless RR is using a HUD overhaul.

Sledgehammer427 · 10-25-08, 06:29 PM

that gui looks like TMO...
the PK button would have GSP labeled on it if it were RFB

10-23-08, 06:23 PM	#1
Rockin Robbins Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: DeLand, FL Posts: 8,900 Downloads: 135 Uploads: 52	Stranger than you CAN imagine I think it was Issac Asimov who said that the universe was not only stranger than we believe but stranger than we CAN believe. Follow me into the twilight zone. We have long been using Dick O'Kane with the instruction, bearing set, range who cares? But because of the short distance the torpedo travels straight out of the tube before it turns to the set bearing, a distance called reach, a slight angle is created from the apparent origin of the torpedo's path and the position of our submarine when the torpedo is fired. That means that the range in the TDC actually is meaningful even in a point and shoot shot.... Yeah, that's what I said too. OK, how bad can this get? Can't be too bad, right? So I set up an 8000 yard shooting gallery with tankers arrayed about every 10 degrees, with the center one on the zero bearing. Let's make boom-booms! This is MY kind of experimentation. Through this whole thing I am using slow speed torpedoes for max range. Stupid me! First, let's send six torpedoes up the zero line. We'll fire two on the default zero range, two on 3475, the manual setting I always use for Dick O'Kane, set 2 for 3000 and 2 for 8000 yards. Shoot times six! Nasty finding number one! Of six torpedoes shot, only two reached 8000 yards. The rest crapped out between 3000 and 4500 yards. Also the torpedoes all ran different speeds, making spacing really important to tell which torpedoes were which. Which ones reached the target? I don't know. Set 'em up again. This time I shot only the first two, set at zero range, up the zero line 30 seconds apart. They both made 8000 yards this time and they......both......missed right by about a target length and a half. What the????? Tried if again and again. When the torpedoes reached the 8000 yards (about half the time) they all missed right. These are zero gyro angle shots! Somehow the zero range predictable alters the path to the right far enough to miss consistently at 8000 yards. Play the scary music. Any other range went up the zero line and struck the target if the torpedo got that far. I learned that experimenting at 8000 yards was darn frustrating and I'd better shorten up the shooting gallery. So I did. I set up a new one at 3200 yards with target tankers on the 315, 320. 334, 346, 0, 14, 24, 35 and 49 bearings. That is more like it! I sent three torpedoes up the zero line with 1475, 2650 and 5008 ranges. What do you think happened? Well that was refreshingly expected. They were very similar in path and all struck pretty much the identical spot. Now let us leave the bounds of sanity and enter the darker realms. We'll aim at the 49º bearing boat. What happens with a shot set to 9843 yards? It's a clean miss! The torpedo goes straight to the end of its reach, turns right but stops turning early so that 9843 yards it crosses the set bearing. Anywhere before there it's going to miss left by varying amounts depending on the distance traveled. So what ARE the allowable parameters at 3200 yards? I decided to find out by experimentation with the game, since a mathematical proof does not have to hold true there, especially after the zero bearing zero range shot consistently missed right earlier. I need a drink. NOW! Turns out that a range of 5582 yards will just clip the left end of the target. Of course, the correct range nails it And 2625 clips the right end. So there you have it. For a target sitting at bearing 49º the margin of error for this tanker was -575 to +2382 yards, 80% to 174% of the actual range would hit the target. Lesser deviations from zero bearing would be more tolerant, greater bearings would be even less tolerant to proper range being input into the TDC. The conclusions we can make here are the following. Don't shoot Dick O'Kane shots from more than 2000 yards, with torpedo gyro angles much above 15º left or right. Between 345 and 15, you'll get your hits. Outside that you better put a rough range estimate into the TDC. There's plenty of slop, but the more accurate the better. Inside of 2000 yards don't change a thing. You're a deadeye killer there. Proceed as normal. Of course you realize that one sonar ping will peg that range close enough for anybody's liking and you can shoot out to 3000 yards with perfect accuracy. Well not perfect but nobody on the target will care that the shot landed ten yards off the aiming point. And don't bother shooting beyond 3000 yards with the stock game. Half the slow speed torpedoes run out of juice between 3000 and 4000 yards. You can't sink ships with a wimpy torpedo. Luke, what about RFB? Ducimus is in the slammer, so does anybody know the score with TMO? Want to play? Here's my 3200 Yard Shooting Gallery for your listening and dancing enjoyment. Unzip into your Wolves of the Pacific\data\single missions folder. __________________ Sub Skipper's Bag of Tricks, Slightly Subnuclear Mk 14 & Cutie, Slightly Subnuclear Deck Gun, EZPlot 2.0, TMOPlot, TMOKeys, SH4CMS Last edited by Rockin Robbins; 10-23-08 at 07:30 PM.

10-25-08, 02:45 PM	#2
Arclight Navy Seal Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Land of windmills, tulips, wooden shoes and cheese. Lots of cheese. Posts: 8,467 Downloads: 53 Uploads: 10	Haha, told you range was relevant. :p Nice write up. __________________ Contritium praecedit superbia.

10-25-08, 04:01 PM	#3
Sledgehammer427 PacWagon Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Drinking coffee and staring at trees in Massachusetts Posts: 2,908 Downloads: 287 Uploads: 0	and thats why i hate broad angles... hey Rockin Robbins...i need some help with a term paper :rotfl: just kidding __________________ Cold Waters Voice Crew - Fire Control Officer Cmdr O. Myers - C/O USS Nautilus (SS-168) 114,000 tons sunk - 4 Spec Ops completed V-boat Nutcase - Need supplies? Japanese garrison on a small island in the way? Just give us a call! D4C!

10-25-08, 06:07 PM	#5
Arclight Navy Seal Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Land of windmills, tulips, wooden shoes and cheese. Lots of cheese. Posts: 8,467 Downloads: 53 Uploads: 10	I know it doesn't really matter. I'm just a perfectionist, so I couldn't resist. I always set the range as high as I can get it (requires some fidling with the stadimeter). Then the "deviation" is never more then the distance the tubes are from the centerline (at least when firing at 0 bearing ). At first I set the range as low as it would go, but then you notice the issue when firing at longer ranges. Like you suggested, a quick ping for range will solve the issue. But I never noticed torpedo's running out of steam too early. :hmm: Longest (RFB) shot for me was 4 fish running more then 6000 yards, with 2 hits and actually detonating, the other 2 going in front and behind the target. Was this while you were testing the new RFB? __________________ Contritium praecedit superbia.

10-25-08, 06:29 PM	#7
Sledgehammer427 PacWagon Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Drinking coffee and staring at trees in Massachusetts Posts: 2,908 Downloads: 287 Uploads: 0	that gui looks like TMO... the PK button would have GSP labeled on it if it were RFB __________________ Cold Waters Voice Crew - Fire Control Officer Cmdr O. Myers - C/O USS Nautilus (SS-168) 114,000 tons sunk - 4 Spec Ops completed V-boat Nutcase - Need supplies? Japanese garrison on a small island in the way? Just give us a call! D4C!