What would have happened if Germany didn't declare on US after Pearl Harbor?

[BasilY]

I personally think the the US would have declared war on Germany after Pearl for the smallest infractions. What do you think?

I post the question since Japan didn't declare war on the Soviet Union after Barbarossa, Germany is under no obligation to declare war on the US after Pearl Harbor.

[Task Force]

The war would have been entirely diffrent if Germany and the US wouldnt have declared war on each other, Germany should have not let japan in to the Axis side of the war. So america wouldnt have declared war, then Britian would have more than likely been taken over since america wouldnt be in the war (for germany atleast) and the war might have lasted alot longer. It is a good thing that america got in the war, If germany would have won.

But what do I know.

[BasilY]

Originally Posted by Task Force

... So america wouldnt have declared war, then Britian would have more than likely been taken over since america wouldnt be in the war (for germany atleast) ....

Brits are not the only one fighting in Dec, 1941. For better or worse, the Russians had quite a bit to do with the eventual Germany downfall. America helped here as well with Lend-lease even before Dec, 1941. 9 out of 10 german casualty occured in the Eastern Front. Thus between June, 1941 and June 1944, The british isles were a mere side-show to the Titanic struggle in the East, and other theaters such as the mediteranean and North Africa, Even without a second front after Normandy, the Germans were doom. Churchill admitted it as much.

The Western Front did help create a democractic western Europe, In which a new Germany emerge. So Normandy, the bulge, Anzio, were not in vain.

[Sailor Steve]

I voted 'Other', not because I have another idea, but because I don't have any idea at all.

[donut]

Soon after Pearl:hmm:

[BasilY]

Let me toss in another, more unlikely, scenario:

What if Germany declare war on Japan after Pearl Harbor?

And why not?:
- Japan won't attack USSR any time soon, Even Richard Sorge, the soviet spy knew it from German sources in Japan. In fact, Japan was appeasing the Russians so they can deploy their resources against the US.
- No new front open, not a single German soldier will be diverted to face Japan.
- No lost opportunities, there wasn't much the Germans can take from America (yet).
- There isn't much a potential Japanese victory can give Germany, even in the unlikely event of Japan achieving a favorable settlement with the US (Even Japan did not dream off complete victory over the US)

And most importantly:
- Help Nazi sympathizers in US to make their case.
- It makes it very hard for American public opinion at the time to support a war against Germany, a co-belligerent at the very least.

Sure Japan had an pact with Germany at the time, but so did the Soviet Union a mere few months earlier.

[Hanomag]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

I voted 'Other', not because I have another idea, but because I don't have any idea at all.

LOL me 2... :rotfl:

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by Task Force

The war would have been entirely diffrent if Germany and the US wouldnt have declared war on each other, Germany should have not let japan in to the Axis side of the war. So america wouldnt have declared war, then Britian would have more than likely been taken over since america wouldnt be in the war (for germany atleast) and the war might have lasted alot longer. It is a good thing that america got in the war, If germany would have won.

But what do I know.

Not very much apparently

The US would have declared war on Germany.

Roosevelt knew that a European continent ruled by Germany would eventually become a threat to the US in trade terms amongst others.

Add to that the close relationship between the US and the UK both in historical and in inhabitants terms.....I honestly don't think Roosevelt had much choice.

Could you imagine the might of Germany should she gain control of the Royal Navy and possessions/resources of the British Empire.

[bert8for3]

I agree there would eventually have been a US declaration of war, but when is the question.

I recently finished reading "The Pearl Harbor Myth", don't recall the author's name off the top. If one subscribes to the theory, Roosevelt had decided long before 12/7/41 that the European situation presented the greater threat and that it was essential to enter the war in the European theatre as a priority, and that preparations had to give recognition to that priority, even if it meant that a likely Pacific theatre was given less in way of resources. The trick was how to enter the war in Europe.

The analysis goes on that Roosevelt embarked on a deliberate programme of provocation on both fronts. If it ended up with Hitler declaring war, so much the better. If it ended up with Japan declaring war, whether attacking first or not, and thereby triggering a declaration of war by Hitler, then that was fine also.

The problem, so to speak, was that Hitler was ignoring the provocations, despite an essentially undeclared state of war. Absent a declaration of war, Roosevelt had to find sufficient cause in some incident or other that would not only justify a declaration of war against Hitler, but one that would also be of sufficient weight to rally popular opinion in the US fully behind him. He was still faced with considerable division of domestic opinion.

When sufficient cause might have arisen, or been perceived as such by Roosevelt, is a matter of speculation. One might imagine that chances are that with US naval forces increasingly engaged in convoy escort duties, a large unit would at some point have been sunk, whether deliberately or otherwise, providing "enough" cause.

[BasilY]

Originally Posted by jimbuna

Not very much apparently

The US would have declared war on Germany.

Roosevelt knew that a European continent ruled by Germany would eventually become a threat to the US in trade terms amongst others.

Add to that the close relationship between the US and the UK both in historical and in inhabitants terms.....I honestly don't think Roosevelt had much choice.

Could you imagine the might of Germany should she gain control of the Royal Navy and possessions/resources of the British Empire.

Why did some many here think Britain will fall and germany victorious if America didn't declare war on Germany?

That's highly unlikely because:
1. Germany had already given up trying to conquer England by Sea born Invasion by 1941;
2. American Arms and supplies can sustain England without American at war with Germany De Jure
3. If America concentrate her attention on Japan, New Zealand, Australia, and British India can shift their forces to the fight in Europe/North Africa where they are already heavily engaged. (Interesting fact: Aquitania, the ship that no real uboat ever put under the cross hair, was transporting Australian troops back home to face the Japanese threat.) So instead of Americans landing on Omaha, it will be the Kiwis and Ausis, while American Infantryman will be fighting in Papua New Guenia. I doubt the result will be much different.

Oh yeah, there are also about 10,000,000 Russians who really like to have a luger for a souvenior.

I am surprise that no one pick number 6. If America concentrate on Japan First, and ended war in the Pacific, said, a year earlier (August 44), The global situation will be vastly different today:

1. American troops would be in all of Korea, at least none from russia, hence a divided korean and korean war becomes unlikely,
2. American troops would be in Manchuria, Taiwan, maybe coastal China, making a Communist victory in the Chinese civil war less likely. (Manchuria later become a strong base for the communist during the civil war)
3. American troops and fleet in Japan, Korea, Manchuria will be facing the Russians, who will be suspicious of American motive. Stalin, being the paranoid SOB he is, will probably move troops to the east just in case America has a different agenda (Stalin were known for his own double-crossing skills)
4. By August, 44, Victory fever in Berlin should have subsided by now. Cooler heads, like Runstadt, Rommel, could have prevail.

So, at this point, an american peace plan - that restore prewar borders, Demilitarized Germany, require the change of Government in Germany, military tribunals (everything on the Atlantic Charter agreed to before dec, 1941) - with the inplicit threat of war against any side (A threat Stalin can't ignore with American troop staring down at Siberia) who refused to accept it, will be quite persuasive.

Some will say the Nazi's will still fight to the bitter end, that's what people said about japan as well..., And look what happen in Germany also, the Ruhr pocket surrender with 300,000 troops, and the Flensburg government under Doenitz didn't put up much a fight either.

[Paul_IronCoffin]

There are some who belive the US 'invited' the attack on Pearl for the simple reason of having an excuse to declare war and having the electorate support such a move. There were reports of Dutch (?) subs detecting the Japanese fleets way before Pearl, and the US administration at the time not responding.

[Task Force]

People believe that the US invented the Pearl Harbor attack. I guess thousands of men dead, ships sunk, airfeilds distroyed, Picific Us turned into a easy target. I guess its not to hard to believe that people would think that, people also think the Nazis didnt have concentration camps ither.

[Erich dem Roten]

I've always held the belief that any dreams Hitler had of occupying the UK were dashed in the 'Spitfire Summer' of 1940. The allies had a tenuous air superiority from then on that only grew until it was completely dominant (chalk it up to bravery, ability, and poor decision making by the German high command). I don't for a second think that the UK could ever be taken.

My opinion of Germany's best case scenario would be an occupation of the continent, from western France to their own eastern borders, with parts of Poland as a weakly held buffer. Eventually partisan efforts and Russian/allied (even without the US) pressure would lead to collapse, if it hadn't internally already (remember, Hitler wasn't universally popular even in Nazi Germany).

All that said, I don't think the United States really had a choice in the matter. The UK was an ally, and though it took Pearl Harbor to actually get an official declaration, Roosevelt was already doing what he could to help the British cause, mainly in the form of war materials.

[Task Force]

I forgot about russia. I should have rememberd them after the great time ive been haveing with there planes in IL2. It is quite likely that no matter if america would have or not have gotten in the war, Germany was gona lose. I myself think they got alittle to overconfidentin in there defences(1940-1943), The loss of uboats during 43-44 was a big notice to them. I think thats the way to say it.