Democracy: SH5, which era do you want?

[The General]

To the Subsim Community,

The next Silent Hunter should involve modern submarine warfare simply because it will allow the possiblity of proper sub vs sub combat for the first time. Anybody who ever played Red Storm Rising will know how intense and atmospheric this can be and that was with just a handful off two-dimensional screens . No true subsim fan could not wanna see this done with with modern 3D graphics! Anybody who says that no sub ever engaged another in real life is a bit naive. Even if they didn't in the past, what's to say it won't happen in the near future? Just imagine; stalking your prey in real life topographical terrain, taking water temperature and salinity into consideration, hunting for enemy subs under the ice-pack, or breaking through said ice to launch a missile strike! Fantastic stuff!

This forum, and others like it, do have an influence on the software houses and developers. Afterall, we're their customers, it would be bad business not to pay attention. If, for example, a petition was submitted with hundreds of names on it, asking for SH5 or 6 to be a modern warfare subsim, they would pay attention.

Go watch The Hunt for Red October, Crimson Tide, Ice Station Zebra and K-19: The Widowmaker and then tell me this isn't the best idea since bread came sliced!

If I lose, I will go quietly.

[MBot]

Here is a little food for thought for those that fear that Cold War is all about computers:

Did you know that until 1972, the primary anti-ship torpedo of US subs, including nuclear attack subs as the Skipjack and Thresher/Permit class, were the Mk-14 and Mk-16 free running torpedos of WWII vintage?

[Te Kaha]

My vote goes to WW-I, simply because it has never been done before.

[Task Force]

I voted WW2, If I could have a second choice id pick WW1.

[Sailor Steve]

WWII. If, after all, it is to be a completely new game, I'd want to have my old favorites get the updates first. I wouldn't want to be playing WWI with a new engine and still be stuck with that old, klunky SH3 for my WWII fix.

Cold war doesn't interest me, but I'm not sure if it's the whole "I like history and historically nothing happened" or the fact that I lived through it and don't care to again.

[Takeda Shingen]

Well, just to round out the comments, I'd love a Cold War simulation (let's say 1955-1985). It would be nice to combine Dangerous Waters-style simulation with Silent Hunter graphics.


EDIT: To clarify, my ideal would be a purely historically-based Cold War simulator. This would mean no 'what-ifs', and very little shooting. You wouldn't need follow real-life patrols, but you would do the same types of things: Observe Soviet exercises, tail Russian subs, wire tapping, et al. I know that I am in the absolute minority, but its what I enjoy, and it is what most of my personal Dangerous Waters missions entail. I know that this is very unlikely to be the type of sim released, but that's okay too.

And for the record, yes I do enjoy Microsoft Train Simulator. I know you're all surprised.

[elanaiba]

Originally Posted by Te Kaha

My vote goes to WW-I, simply because it has never been done before.

http://www.strategyfirst.com/en/games/ShellsOfFury/

[Dr.KawleKawle]

I voted for WWI. Sinking the Lusitania would get my vote :P

[Rockin Robbins]

I vote for the devs to do whatever they have in mind and let us be the judge. I would have fought the stuff in SH4UBM U-Boat side tooth and nail. But when I bought it I had the most fun I've had with my clothes on.

I hated Ducimus' idea of evil airplanes that bombed you at periscope depth. When I tried them out I absolutely loved the idea. It made Admiral Fluckey's yo-yo strategy by far the best game in town.

When Lurker came out with RSRD saying that traffic would be where it belonged historically, I railed against that. The real skippers fought an enemy that reacted to what they did. You put a sub here, they find out and run the traffic there. RSRD won't be able to do that. I tried it and it worked great.

I'm through prejudging releases, mods or games. Game developers do what they do because they're good enough to get paid. Experience tells me to take what they put out and then see if I like it. Telling them what to do is out of my league. And out of yours too. They shouldn't be limited to your prejudices and lack of imagination. Or mine.

No vote.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Dr.KawleKawle

first post!

Don't let it be the last!:p

WELCOME ABOARD!

[Snakeeyes]

I say Cold War. I'm up for a change.

[The General]

Dammnit! I got a link on the Front Page, courtesy of Neal Stevens, and the Poll is still not going my way . Time to put in a call to you know who....damn, where's that number?......Oh, here it is:...dialing code 666....

[bigwillydier]

Sorry guys, this is a long one..

My family has consistently served aboard U.S. submarines since WWII. I remember that my great grandpa’s stories were always the best. My grandpa and my dad served during the early and late cold war respectively. They never really talked about much, some boat stories, ports of call, but never anything really exciting. With all this talk about submarines in my family, I became very interested in it. I played Silent Service on my Nintendo and Silent Service II on my 386sx, both set in WWII. Those games rocked! Submarines kicked some serious butt in the Pacific theatre and the history and the stories of those who served on those boats is extremely interesting.

Following the 3 generations before me, I also joined the submarine force. It became clear during my time in the sub force that, the men who served aboard submarines during the Cold War aren’t talking about it! I remember when the book, “Blind Man’s Bluff” came out. This book claimed to offer a lot of the details about how submarines operated during the Cold War. The Navy responded by adamantly dismissing the book outright. We actually received training on what to tell people if we are ever asked about anything in the book. At any rate, it’s a damn good read.

Why a Cold War sub sim?:

688i, Sub Command and now Dangerous waters are cool simulators of the modern Submarine Force(s). When it comes down to it though, the platforms, campaigns and missions don’t represent the Cold War era. The platform models are fairly realistic and complex, and the missions are interesting enough. These titles provide some good ammo for modern submarine sim fun.

BUT.. again.. these can’t really be called Cold War era sims. The Cold War basically ran from the mid to late 1940’s all the way up in to the late 1980’s and early 90’s depending on who you ask. Though the first 688, USS Los Angeles, was commissioned in 1976, the first 688i, USS San Juan (SSN-751) wasn’t commissioned until 1988, just as the Cold War was coming to a close.

I know there are other sub sims out there. I don’t think there are any out there that offer us any significant realism, dedication to historical accuracy or the platforms that were actually the workhorses of the submarine force’s role in the Cold War.

And what about current releases?:

After playing 688i for a few years, I installed and played Sub Command for the first time.. I felt like I was playing 688i with the addition of the Seawolf and Akula classes and a few more bells and whistles. I liked it overall, but the graphics were starting to look dated. I don’t think they changed much, if anything at all on the 688. I was stationed on a Seawolf class boat at the time and when playing one in-game, it was like they changed the graphics a wee bit to maybe look a little bit more like the AN/BSY-2 combat suite, but I still felt like I was cruising around in the 688.

Then Dangerous Waters came out and I was excited again, because I really thought this one was going to be different. But… It was like Sub Command only with the addition of the Kilos, OHP, Orions and Seahawks., which I don’t think I’ve ever played around with.. lol.. I don’t know.. the series seems to be a bit dated. They just keep adding more units it seems without updating the existing platforms, graphics, UI, etc.

Hell, while the 688 platform was fairly close to simulating a real one when 688i came out, the 688’s in the real world today are now, in my opinion, much more capable as they continue to be “upgraded”.

Ok, now let’s compare Silent Hunter IV to Dangerous Waters, aside from the obvious time and theatre differences, on the design level they both seem to try to accurately depict the platforms included in each title. I think Silent Hunter is less complex, but then again, the systems on the old boats are less complex too. I think the physics are modeled in greater detail in Dangerous Waters.

Dangerous Waters offers semi-authentic fictional campaigns which are basically a set a missions that are followed in order. Silent Hunter IV offers a “dynamic” campaign that tries to immerse you into the historical situations that played out in the Pacific theatre of WWII.

Graphically, I think Dangerous Waters is way behind the curve while Silent Hunter is absolutely gorgeous.

What I’d like to see:

There have been numerous WWII sub sims. There have been some decent, though seemingly repetitive modern sub sims. There has even been a few WWI sub sims. There may have been a few Cold War themed sub sims, but they really haven’t been significant titles.

I’d like to see a game that depicts the Cold War as accurately as possible. I would want to see dynamic campaigns that attempt to be as historically accurate as possible. I’d want to see a sim that attempts to render the platforms of the era as close as possible and offered the complexity offered in Sonalysts’ titles. I’d like to see better communications between other units, force commands and theatre commands. Basically, I like to see Ubisoft and Sonylsts to combine talent and develop a complex, dynamic, historically authentic and good looking Cold War themed sub sim.

[Sailor Steve]

WELCOME ABOARD!

Excellent first post! And I agree, up to a point. I have no desire to play a cold war sim, but then I don't do modern air combat either; but I fully recognize that there are a lot of folks who do, and I agree that a modern, or early, cold war sub sim could be cool.

What most of us don't agree with is the idea that it should carry the Silent Hunter label. If UBI were to do such a sim, it should have its own series title, but possibly related. Silent Stalker, maybe?

Back when SH4 was announced, and we were told it would be a US Pacific game, the U-boat fanatics complained that it should stay in the Atlantic. I argued then that if they were developing an all-new game with an all-new engine, then they were right - it should start at the beginning. But, I said, if it was going to be the same engine, what would be the point? The same game over with a new name? Made no sense at all.

Now I say the same thing, but from the other side. If they're righting new code and changing a lot of things, they should indeed start with WW2 Atlantic U-boats again, because it's an all-new game and that period has the most fans. But if it's the same game again, then you're right - it should move on to a new era, or at least a new area.

But when the ultimate, be-all end-all of subsims is finally developed, I hope it would branch out to cover every era of submarine warfare, with appropriate mood, systems, crew appearance and voices etc. to satisfy everyone.

But, as was pointed out, it will never satisfy everyone. Even a time machine would get complaints.

"I like the game, but I hate the moldy food!"

"Charlie hasn't posted lately." "Oh, his boat was reported missing." "Oh, crap! Poor Charlie."

[Captain Strangelove]

Nice posts up there.

Although I would like to have a cold war scenario as well, I wouldn't mind having a merged SHIII/SHIV game with updated graphics and additional nations, just as Rilder was proposing.

Cheers

Kai