Merchant ships - how do you see flags at night?

[notanameleft]

Hi everyone! I'm just getting back into this game having not played it for some time - incredible work you guys have done on GWX and the OLCE ubermod.

As GWX doesn't show on the map if a merchant is allied or enemy - could anyone tell me if i'm doing something wrong, I'm having difficulty when lining up an attack at night. I have to get pretty close to be able to see the flag at all but in particular I'm finding it difficult to tel the difference between Irish, French and Italian. In the daylight it would be easy but in the dark the colours don't show up - I torp'd an Irish merchant by mistake thinking it was french. As it was going down i surfaced right by its stern and still couldn't properly make out which flag it's mean to be. Almost feel like my watch crew could do with a torch - although i suppose that's not very stealth like!:rotfl:

Is this just one of those situations where the game is just being realistic? Or is there something I'm missing?

Thanks in advance for any feedback!!

[nirwana]

At night depending on the actual weather and ure speed u can get close (400-2000m) enough to read the flag without being detected by the merchant. Last resort would be to get into the path of it, submerge and use ure scope, surface again after the distance is large enough and run ure attack if its an enemy.

[G.K.]

In GWX neutral ships have their lights on... when the ship is darkened, sink it...

[GoldenRivet]

Originally Posted by G.K.

In GWX neutral ships have their lights on... when the ship is darkened, sink it...

the are neutrals and friendly ships without lights on... i promise

at night you just have to close the range and take a look... thats all you can do.

and it is important... renown is everything when it comes to upgrading your boat and acquiring new officers and crew... make mistakes at sea, and you lose renown... this is a bad thing!

[sharkbit]

the are neutrals and friendly ships without lights on... i promise

How true....

I try to identify the nationality of all targets when possible, however....

I stalked a darkened ship out in the Atlantic at night, got into firing position from less than 1000m and hit her with a torpedo. I was going to wait around and see if she needed to be finished off with the deck gun and was looking at her with the external camera and noticed the Brazilian flag flying. This is mid '41 and Brazil becomes an allied unit in '42. Oops .

Well, I beat it out of there as quick as I could so if/when she sank, I wouldn't get nailed for sinking a neutral and I can tell Bdu "Ummm.....it wasn't me. We weren't even in the area at the time."

Now, neutrals in convoys...that's a different matter. If a neutral happens to be sailing in a convoy, protected by English warships, they're fair game in my book, renown be damned. :p

[Letum]

Ideally you should pick your targets in the day and attack at night.

[G.K.]

Originally Posted by GoldenRivet

the are neutrals and friendly ships without lights on... i promise

Yes, but not so often. Either way you can simply recognize enemy from a neutral or ally by appaering ,,merchant spotted!" window with options - it appears only when the ship is enemy...

[GoldenRivet]

Originally Posted by G.K.

Yes, but not so often. Either way you can simply recognize enemy from a neutral or ally by appaering ,,merchant spotted!" window with options - it appears only when the ship is enemy...

i have this window disabled

100% realism immersion = i have to look at the flag

[STEED]

Originally Posted by GoldenRivet

the are neutrals and friendly ships without lights on... i promise

And Allies.

I made it up with Marshal Mannerheim.

[Chisum]

Few days ago, august 1940, I meet an american cargo all light off...
Order from Bdu says in that case we may open the fire.
When I watch she is american, I stop the fire and she don't sunk(but was in flames)...

But if she sunks, what's happend after ??

[notanameleft]

thanks! I have been about 2 metres from the flag though and because it's dark it's really hard to make out the colours i.e. the orange in the irish flag doesn't look orange because it's dark. Kind of like trying to look at colours under a different coloured light

the british flag is easy but the shape of the irish is exactly the same as the tricolore french flag or Italian. Is it just me? how on earth can you tell in the dark especially from a couple of hundred metres away

maybe i should follow the vessel for a few hours and then look again when it's lighter?

[Red Heat]

Originally Posted by notanameleft

Hi everyone! I'm just getting back into this game having not played it for some time - incredible work you guys have done on GWX and the OLCE ubermod.

As GWX doesn't show on the map if a merchant is allied or enemy - could anyone tell me if i'm doing something wrong, I'm having difficulty when lining up an attack at night. I have to get pretty close to be able to see the flag at all but in particular I'm finding it difficult to tel the difference between Irish, French and Italian. In the daylight it would be easy but in the dark the colours don't show up - I torp'd an Irish merchant by mistake thinking it was french. As it was going down i surfaced right by its stern and still couldn't properly make out which flag it's mean to be. Almost feel like my watch crew could do with a torch - although i suppose that's not very stealth like!:rotfl:

Is this just one of those situations where the game is just being realistic? Or is there something I'm missing?

Thanks in advance for any feedback!!

We dont...we sniff the air serching for fresh blood, works all the time! :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

[Drakken]

Originally Posted by notanameleft

As GWX doesn't show on the map if a merchant is allied or enemy - could anyone tell me if i'm doing something wrong, I'm having difficulty when lining up an attack at night. I have to get pretty close to be able to see the flag at all but in particular I'm finding it difficult to tel the difference between Irish, French and Italian. In the daylight it would be easy but in the dark the colours don't show up - I torp'd an Irish merchant by mistake thinking it was french. As it was going down i surfaced right by its stern and still couldn't properly make out which flag it's mean to be. Almost feel like my watch crew could do with a torch - although i suppose that's not very stealth like!:rotfl:

Is this just one of those situations where the game is just being realistic? Or is there something I'm missing?

Thanks in advance for any feedback!!

It is realistic. And not all merchants had their true country flags. Use of false flags and lights in the night to hide the fact that the ship was an enemy merchantman was a real possibility. Unless you had updated ship registries inside your submarine to check the ship's identity, property and country of registration, you could never be sure if the ship was really neutral. But of course, in the game the ships always display their real country flags.

In the Buchheim's novel Das Boot, such a near-miss happened. On their way back to the Bay of Biscaye they stop a ship which seem a Spanish neutral. However the 1WO cannot find the ship in the Uboot's registry book, so Der Alte instructs the target to put a canoe on the water, or they will sink the ship. They do not act fast enough to his liking, so the sub shoots a torpedo to sink it. Fortunately, the eel is a dud, and the Spanish captain finally puts a canoe at sea to join the submarine.

In the end the Navigator finds the ship in the updates annexed to the registry, confirming that it was an old American ship that was bought by Spaniards fishermen, and thus really a neutral ship. Useless to say, the 1WO got severely reprimanded for his oversight. Just imagine the consequence if a German ship had sunk a Spanish vessel in Spanish waters.

However, it all depends on position. You always want to be abeam of your target.

a) Take marks and compute the target's course and speed as far as possible. Make sure the course line is dead center on the middle of the target ship's bow and stern. When you have the target's course, turn on the same course yourself a faster speed to place yourself abeam of the target. Take the time it takes to reach a position in front of the target to enter the target's speed in the TDC.

b) When in position, veer to place yourself in front of the target's course at a 90 degrees angle from the target's course, then go in periscope depth. Try to get within a very close range from the course line (800 to 1200m) and wait for the target to get closer following her course.

I usually use the compass to delimitate a "kill zone" with the center of the compass directly on the course line at a bearing I'd like to fire at. This zone is generally 1000m wide, and when the ship enters that zone it means I can fire at will if I ever identify it.

c) Compute the fire solution in case of positive identification, either at a point in advance or directly on target. You already have the speed and range (hopefully), and since the course is drawn you can calculate the AoB on the navigation map. You may even predict what the AoB the ship will be at a given point at if it continues on its predicted course. That is a killer if your data solution is made to fire at a preselected bearing.

d) Go to periscope to check from time to time if you may see the flag. Each time that you cannot see the flag, update the fire solution to be ready to fire anytime. Usually, you'll be able to see when the AoB becomes closer to 90 degrees, because the target should be getting closer from you.

e1) If you see it is a neutral, pull down the periscope and let is pass.
e2) If it is enemy, update the data one last time and shoot away.
e3) If you cannot see, take a decision. Either shoot anyway, or evade the target.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Drakken

It is realistic. And not all merchants had their true country flags. Use of false flags and lights in the night to hide the fact that the ship was an enemy merchantman was a real possibility. Unless you had updated ship registries inside your submarine to check the ship's identity, property and country of registration, you could never be sure if the ship was really neutral. But of course, in the game the ships always display their real country flags.

Which is why they stopped neutral ships and examined cargoes and papers.

Just imagine the consequence if a German ship had sunk a Spanish vessel in Spanish waters.

Apparently not much of a consequense at all.
http://uboat.net/allies/merchants/1151.html
http://uboat.net/allies/merchants/1223.html
http://uboat.net/allies/merchants/266.html
http://uboat.net/allies/merchants/2854.html

[Kuckoo]

Quote:
Originally posted by Drakken:
Just imagine the consequence if a German ship had sunk a Spanish vessel in Spanish waters.

Steve,
I have previously seen the same information, and you have beaten me to it. It seems to me that, with the exception of American ships (of which there are only a few examples of sinkings), the BdU treated almost all neutral ships are fair game in almost any circumstances - and it appears they got away with it! Why they attacked so many neutral ships (Spanish, Swedish, Danish and especially Norwegian, plus many others) and how they got away with it, are things that genuinely puzzle me. I have tried to find explanations, but cannot find anything which deals with this issue.

Since sinking neutrals was evidently acceptable to BdU, I have amended the relevant .cfg file, as suggested in another thread. I then play to my own "house rules" to stop me doing anything crass.