Where were they?

badaboom · 08-20-08, 07:22 PM

Fleet boats at The Battle of Midway that is,If we broke the Japanese code[which the allies did] why didn't we set up a net of fleet boats similar to a German Wolf Pack far in front of the island well before the IJN could launch thier carrier planes?

SteamWake · 08-20-08, 07:34 PM

Hindsight is 20 20.

Not a bad idea but... well its history.

badaboom · 08-20-08, 08:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteamWake

Hindsight is 20 20.

Not a bad idea but... well its history.

Well not really hindsight,The USN new they were coming,they even new the target was Midway,I just feel they could have used subs as a stealthy deffence far in advance of the pending IJN attack.

@MM,I didn't know that about the Tambor,I bet that was a eye popping cup of coffee that morning when she realized here escrt party

Peto · 08-21-08, 12:24 AM

Well--they knew they wer coming but they didn't know exactly where they were going to be. That left a lot of ocean to cover. And the USN was still learning how to best utilze submarines when Midway happened. :hmm:

Mush Martin · 08-21-08, 06:56 AM

There was a picket line formed IIRC and on time but little more
effect than the IJN picket line that formed after the US carriers
had passed through the area.

The USN had more than its fair share of sailors luck at point luck that
day, no complaints I think is fair, the subs can only see so far to the
horizon even with radar, and D/F wouldnt work with the invasion force
under blackout.

sharkbit · 08-21-08, 07:43 AM

Check out:
"War Beneath the Sea: Submarine Conflict During World War II" by Peter Padfield

He has quite a bit of information on the roles US subs played during Midway in one section of his book.

Very good book overall, covering all the major combatants use of subs during WWII.

SteamWake · 08-21-08, 08:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by badaboom

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteamWake

Hindsight is 20 20.

Not a bad idea but... well its history.

Well not really hindsight,The USN new they were coming,they even new the target was Midway,I just feel they could have used subs as a stealthy deffence far in advance of the pending IJN attack.

@MM,I didn't know that about the Tambor,I bet that was a eye popping cup of coffee that morning when she realized here escrt party

By hindsight I meant... as Peto said.. that the americans were a bit uncertian as to the best method to use the submarines. Not to mention the 'political' aspects of whom actually commanded the silent service.

As it turned out allied forces put a definate crimp into the IJN's style at great costs and unimaginable sacrifice and bravery.

Lets not also forget the IJN's clever attempt at a diversonary force. What if they had fell for that?

Kloef · 08-21-08, 04:37 PM

I order to understand why they didnt send so many subs you have to realize the U.S Navy believed in big battleship confrontations with the Japanese,who started to build battleships for their own after their confrontation with the Russian Navy.

At the time U.S submarines were used as scouts,sweeping the seas of destroyers and other enemy vessels for the task force to be able to pass trough..U.S submarine crews were trained to be invisible at night and day,making the submarine less effective as a weapon..surfacing during the day was considered suicide.

The whole idea of raiding merchants was not popular amongst Navy Command and in particular Submarine Command so that left the submarine force divided.

The most important reason why so few submarines entered the battle of Midway or other Naval Engagements was because the U.S Navy didnt have a clear attack plan on how to use the submarines to any effect,the potency was there,the U.S subs were considered the most modern fighting vessels in the world,contrary to popular believe the U-boats were well build,but lacked the TDC making them less flexible during an attack,also u-boats ran slower than U.S subs and they had airconditioning inside the subs,making them far more comfortable,or as the Navy called it 'habitable'.So although the U.S had information they were not able to use submarines effectively,because of their small role in the whole act of Task Force angagements where they played a very modest role,to be honest submarines were seen as a bit of a joke,and at the lowest of Navy aristocracy..

So it took a while for the U.S Navy High Command to realize,(ironically because the whole concept of commerce raiding was invented by the Americans during the Civil War) that the best way to attack the Japanese was to destroy merchant vessels,the Germans showed how effective that was during the first world war,almost starving Great Britain to death..

So when the attack plan was made and the submarines were used to engage merchant convoys,and tankers in particular the effect was even bigger that anyone in the U.S Navy had hoped for,and was the third major reason why the Japanese lost the war..also a new more aggresive generation of submarine commanders rewrote the submarine manual,hunting for convoys at daytime with their radar and attacking at night,and escaping surfaced where they could outrun most destroyers.U.S submarines also operated in wolfpacks just like the Germans,and to great effect!

So in conclusion,U.S submarines only played a minor role at the start of the war and a substantial role at the end..the big battleships and later the carriers were the stars of the show,offcourse that changed after the war and the situation is radically different today,where submarines play a major role in both attack,information gathering,lauching of special forces troops and nuclear detterance..

Mush Martin · 08-21-08, 04:52 PM

although most of thats true and I agree by and large I would point out that Chet Nimitz was the command in question and was a submariner. as such
had a fair concept of submarine strategic and tactical deployment.

Mush.

Mush Martin · 08-20-08, 07:39 PM

of 25 available boats only three made contact with the enemy

Cuttlefish caught site of a tanker reported its position by
radio and then dived, that ended her part in the operation.

Tambor running on the surface in the dark fell in with
four cruisers and two destroyers, didnt realize until
dawn that they were enemy, any way at first light
USN and IJN realized who was who and in the ensuing
maneuvers two of the cruisers collided. both were damaged
and one sank in the afternoon of the same day. but neither
they nor any of the others were hit by tambor.

Nautilis had a little better luck, she happend upon a
soryu class carrier that was previously damaged in an
air attack, her skipper fired a spread of three torps
He saw one hit and flames and water spout then he dove to avoid escorts
He claimed the kill and was awarded it but it was overturned
by Janac after the war, japanese witnesses verified two misses
and a dud, flames were apparently from the earlier air attack.

not a great turn out really but US doctrine was unrestricted anti
commerce warfare and they were, rightly ,organized and oriented towards
that end not fleet support maneuvers though there was some
obvious fleet support work done over the course of the war

M

08-20-08, 07:22 PM	#1
badaboom Weps Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 359 Downloads: 46 Uploads: 0	Where were they? Fleet boats at The Battle of Midway that is,If we broke the Japanese code[which the allies did] why didn't we set up a net of fleet boats similar to a German Wolf Pack far in front of the island well before the IJN could launch thier carrier planes? __________________

08-21-08, 12:24 AM	#4
Peto Ace of the Deep Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: The details of my life are quite inconsequential Posts: 1,049 Downloads: 4 Uploads: 0	Well--they knew they wer coming but they didn't know exactly where they were going to be. That left a lot of ocean to cover. And the USN was still learning how to best utilze submarines when Midway happened. :hmm: __________________ If your target has a 30 degree AOB, the range from his base course line equals the current range divided by 2.

08-21-08, 06:56 AM	#5
Mush Martin Eternal Patrol Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 4,398 Downloads: 4 Uploads: 0	There was a picket line formed IIRC and on time but little more effect than the IJN picket line that formed after the US carriers had passed through the area. The USN had more than its fair share of sailors luck at point luck that day, no complaints I think is fair, the subs can only see so far to the horizon even with radar, and D/F wouldnt work with the invasion force under blackout. __________________ RIP Mush Tutorial

08-21-08, 07:43 AM	#6
sharkbit The Old Man Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Denver, CO Posts: 1,529 Downloads: 334 Uploads: 0	Check out: "War Beneath the Sea: Submarine Conflict During World War II" by Peter Padfield He has quite a bit of information on the roles US subs played during Midway in one section of his book. Very good book overall, covering all the major combatants use of subs during WWII. __________________ “Prejudice is blind. There will always be someone who says you aren’t welcome at the table. Stop apologizing for who you are and using all your energy trying to change their minds. Yes, you will lose friends, maybe even family. But you will gain your self-respect. You will know your worth. Once you have that, nothing can stop you.”

08-21-08, 04:37 PM	#8
Kloef Weps Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Netherlands Posts: 360 Downloads: 30 Uploads: 0	I order to understand why they didnt send so many subs you have to realize the U.S Navy believed in big battleship confrontations with the Japanese,who started to build battleships for their own after their confrontation with the Russian Navy. At the time U.S submarines were used as scouts,sweeping the seas of destroyers and other enemy vessels for the task force to be able to pass trough..U.S submarine crews were trained to be invisible at night and day,making the submarine less effective as a weapon..surfacing during the day was considered suicide. The whole idea of raiding merchants was not popular amongst Navy Command and in particular Submarine Command so that left the submarine force divided. The most important reason why so few submarines entered the battle of Midway or other Naval Engagements was because the U.S Navy didnt have a clear attack plan on how to use the submarines to any effect,the potency was there,the U.S subs were considered the most modern fighting vessels in the world,contrary to popular believe the U-boats were well build,but lacked the TDC making them less flexible during an attack,also u-boats ran slower than U.S subs and they had airconditioning inside the subs,making them far more comfortable,or as the Navy called it 'habitable'.So although the U.S had information they were not able to use submarines effectively,because of their small role in the whole act of Task Force angagements where they played a very modest role,to be honest submarines were seen as a bit of a joke,and at the lowest of Navy aristocracy.. So it took a while for the U.S Navy High Command to realize,(ironically because the whole concept of commerce raiding was invented by the Americans during the Civil War) that the best way to attack the Japanese was to destroy merchant vessels,the Germans showed how effective that was during the first world war,almost starving Great Britain to death.. So when the attack plan was made and the submarines were used to engage merchant convoys,and tankers in particular the effect was even bigger that anyone in the U.S Navy had hoped for,and was the third major reason why the Japanese lost the war..also a new more aggresive generation of submarine commanders rewrote the submarine manual,hunting for convoys at daytime with their radar and attacking at night,and escaping surfaced where they could outrun most destroyers.U.S submarines also operated in wolfpacks just like the Germans,and to great effect! So in conclusion,U.S submarines only played a minor role at the start of the war and a substantial role at the end..the big battleships and later the carriers were the stars of the show,offcourse that changed after the war and the situation is radically different today,where submarines play a major role in both attack,information gathering,lauching of special forces troops and nuclear detterance.. __________________ http://www.dutchsubmarines.com/ Last edited by Kloef; 08-21-08 at 05:23 PM.

08-20-08, 07:34 PM	#2
SteamWake Rear Admiral Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 13,224 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	Hindsight is 20 20. Not a bad idea but... well its history.

08-21-08, 04:52 PM	#9
Mush Martin Eternal Patrol Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 4,398 Downloads: 4 Uploads: 0	although most of thats true and I agree by and large I would point out that Chet Nimitz was the command in question and was a submariner. as such had a fair concept of submarine strategic and tactical deployment. Mush. __________________ RIP Mush Tutorial

08-20-08, 07:39 PM	#10
Mush Martin Eternal Patrol Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 4,398 Downloads: 4 Uploads: 0	of 25 available boats only three made contact with the enemy Cuttlefish caught site of a tanker reported its position by radio and then dived, that ended her part in the operation. Tambor running on the surface in the dark fell in with four cruisers and two destroyers, didnt realize until dawn that they were enemy, any way at first light USN and IJN realized who was who and in the ensuing maneuvers two of the cruisers collided. both were damaged and one sank in the afternoon of the same day. but neither they nor any of the others were hit by tambor. Nautilis had a little better luck, she happend upon a soryu class carrier that was previously damaged in an air attack, her skipper fired a spread of three torps He saw one hit and flames and water spout then he dove to avoid escorts He claimed the kill and was awarded it but it was overturned by Janac after the war, japanese witnesses verified two misses and a dud, flames were apparently from the earlier air attack. not a great turn out really but US doctrine was unrestricted anti commerce warfare and they were, rightly ,organized and oriented towards that end not fleet support maneuvers though there was some obvious fleet support work done over the course of the war M __________________ RIP Mush Tutorial Last edited by Mush Martin; 08-20-08 at 11:24 PM.