RFB needs your help re: decoys

LukeFF · 01-10-08, 03:26 AM

Okay, here's the thing: we all know that American submarines, at one point in time or another, used some sort of contraption to spoof Japanese sonar. However, the only reference I've seen to an officially-used decoy (on these boards, at least) is in reference to the testing of a decoy in April 1945. Obviously, very late in the war and unlikely to have been deployed before war's end.

So, with that said, we (the RFB team) are debating about what to do with the whole decoy issue. Do we axe them completely or keep them in? Personally, I'm leaning towards getting rid of them completely, since it seems to be the case that no real, true, Navy-accepted decoy was employed on American submarines before war's end. If you have evidence to the contrary, please, make it known here so the RFB team can adjust the game files appropriately. Thanks!

tomoose · 01-10-08, 08:18 AM

It seems SHIV simply grafted the SHIII type of decoy. I'm with you Luke, unless there's historical evidence of the same type of decoy being used more than a couple of times my vote is to axe it completely.

M. Sarsfield · 01-10-08, 08:27 AM

The Batfish has a decoy launcher in the aft torpedo room (pretty small tube a few inches in diameter), but it was probably installed after the war.

Rockin Robbins · 01-10-08, 09:18 AM

The decoys should walk the plank!

mookiemookie · 01-10-08, 09:26 AM

Didn't Fluckey talk about using some sort of decoy in Thunder Below? Obviously it would be really late war, but I could have sworn he said something about it. Don't have the book in front of me to double check.

M. Sarsfield · 01-10-08, 09:29 AM

The the sub sims from the early days, including SH1, let you jettison debris out of one of the torpedo tubes to fake your death. I'd would like to see that get added back in.

(I realize that this is off topic.)

SnowCajun · 01-11-08, 07:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

Didn't Fluckey talk about using some sort of decoy in Thunder Below? Obviously it would be really late war, but I could have sworn he said something about it. Don't have the book in front of me to double check.

Yes he did, he spoke of having several kinds!

SnowCajun

AVGWarhawk · 01-10-08, 10:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M. Sarsfield

The Batfish has a decoy launcher in the aft torpedo room (pretty small tube a few inches in diameter), but it was probably installed after the war.

Is that your signal flare tube? More than likely. It was not intended for decoy but I think was on the table as the launcher if a decoy would become available. It acts like a torpedo tube. I can not find any reference to the decoy actually making use during the war. I have read about shooting out articles from a torp tube. That is about it.

M. Sarsfield · 01-10-08, 10:12 AM

Maybe it is a signal tube, except that it's pretty horizontal. I would expect a signal tube to be vertical, but I'm not proficient in all WWII sub euipment. The tube that I saw was next to and in front of the number 2 and 4 stern tubes sticking out of the port pressure hull. It sort of reminded me of a torpedo tube, but miniature. It wasn't perpendicular to the hull, but probably was angled at 30 degrees horiziontal and maybe 15 degrees vertical (down).

AVGWarhawk · 01-10-08, 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M. Sarsfield

Maybe it is a signal tube, except that it's pretty horizontal. I would expect a signal tube to be vertical, but I'm not proficient in all WWII sub euipment. The tube that I saw was next to and in front of the number 2 and 4 stern tubes sticking out of the port pressure hull. It sort of reminded me of a torpedo tube, but miniature. It wasn't perpendicular to the hull, but probably was angled at 30 degrees horiziontal and maybe 15 degrees vertical (down).

Yes sir, signal flare tube. It is the same on the Torsk. Certainly it could send out a decoy but I believe during the war it was not utilized for that. The tube was to send out a flare for a submarine in distress. Either submerged or surfaced.

http://www.heiszwolf.com/subs/torsk/torsk_torpedo.jpg

There is a large red A over the signal flare tube

epower · 01-10-08, 02:26 PM

Perhaps I can be of some use here.

Been reading Fluckey's Thunder Below! and during Barb's 12th war patrol he recounts that on June 29, 1945, Barb was close inshore in shallow water, tracking merchants who were 1500 yards inside of the 15- fathom curve. After firing nine (!) torpedoes at a single ship for no hits (deep runners mostly) Barb was attacked by a destroyer.

From Thunder Below!, page 340-341:

Time 1332. "Sonar reports all torpedoes passed directly under target. Now fading out on same bearing...

Time 1333. "Gierhart says he heard side throwers firi..."WHAM! WHAM! WHAM! WHAM! "All ahead one-third. Max, I can't hit him! How many evasion devices do we have on board? Bubblers, swim-out becons, everything."
"Seventy-six."
"FIRE THEM ALL!"
"All?"
"I said all. I need them now, before he attacks again. We have no other weapons for these depths. Barbas gpoing to leave here alive and kicking. Get cracking!"
"Aye!" Max and Chuck sped off.
"Jim, to delay the next attack until we get some evasion devices in the water, let's throw her a couple of full-speed knuckles. These will give her something to ping on until the beacons simulating a sub swim away from the tubes and make their own submarine noises. We're only 5500 yards off the beach, so don't let us run aground...

Time 1340. Max returned breathlessly. "Captain, all five beacons are on their way and will be sounding off momentarily, as are the Pillenwurfer bubblers and gassers."
"Sonar reports that there is so much noise in the water it has blanketed our all targets. Sonar is useless."

Hope this helps.

tater · 01-10-08, 02:43 PM

I'd say it's a fair bet they were in common use towards the end of 1944.

AVGWarhawk · 01-10-08, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tater

I'd say it's a fair bet they were in common use towards the end of 1944.

I'm with Tater on this one. The info above looks good to me concerning the round about time the decoy could be used.

M. Sarsfield · 01-10-08, 03:03 PM

76 decoys are a lot of decoys for one boat. So, if we want to be accurate, we shouldn't start using the pillenwurfer modeled in the game until mid-'44.

Donner · 01-10-08, 03:20 PM

Nice find, epower!

From USS Barb's Twelfth War Patrol Report...

Quote:

29 June 1945, 1333-34 : Ten or more depth charges to starboard and astern, above and below. Released 5 NAC beacons set on 3 minutes delay at about one minute intervals. Threw a couple of full speed knuckles then slowed to 70 RPM and withdrew tactically and tacitly from the coast. Several escorts made sweeps around us occasionally but never picked us up again. Consider ourselves extremely unfortunate to only get a draw in this beautiful fight after all the punches we threw.

01-10-08, 03:26 AM	#1
LukeFF Silent Hunter Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Riverside, California Posts: 3,610 Downloads: 41 Uploads: 5	RFB needs your help re: decoys Okay, here's the thing: we all know that American submarines, at one point in time or another, used some sort of contraption to spoof Japanese sonar. However, the only reference I've seen to an officially-used decoy (on these boards, at least) is in reference to the testing of a decoy in April 1945. Obviously, very late in the war and unlikely to have been deployed before war's end. So, with that said, we (the RFB team) are debating about what to do with the whole decoy issue. Do we axe them completely or keep them in? Personally, I'm leaning towards getting rid of them completely, since it seems to be the case that no real, true, Navy-accepted decoy was employed on American submarines before war's end. If you have evidence to the contrary, please, make it known here so the RFB team can adjust the game files appropriately. Thanks! __________________ ROW Sound Effects Contributor RFB Team Leader

01-10-08, 08:18 AM	#2
tomoose Grey Wolf Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 930 Downloads: 23 Uploads: 0	Decoys It seems SHIV simply grafted the SHIII type of decoy. I'm with you Luke, unless there's historical evidence of the same type of decoy being used more than a couple of times my vote is to axe it completely.

01-10-08, 08:27 AM	#3
M. Sarsfield Ace of the Deep Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Tulsa, OK Posts: 1,016 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	The Batfish has a decoy launcher in the aft torpedo room (pretty small tube a few inches in diameter), but it was probably installed after the war. __________________ MJS USS Batfish Volunteer/Reenactor www.ss310.com www.ussbatfish.com Communism killed over 100M people and all that I got was this lousy signature.* *http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/COM.ART.HTM

01-10-08, 09:18 AM	#4
Rockin Robbins Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: DeLand, FL Posts: 8,900 Downloads: 135 Uploads: 52	Arrrrrrr!!! The decoys should walk the plank! __________________ Sub Skipper's Bag of Tricks, Slightly Subnuclear Mk 14 & Cutie, Slightly Subnuclear Deck Gun, EZPlot 2.0, TMOPlot, TMOKeys, SH4CMS

01-10-08, 09:26 AM	#5
mookiemookie Navy Seal Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 9,404 Downloads: 105 Uploads: 1	Didn't Fluckey talk about using some sort of decoy in Thunder Below? Obviously it would be really late war, but I could have sworn he said something about it. Don't have the book in front of me to double check. __________________ They don’t think it be like it is, but it do. Want more U-boat Kaleun portraits for your SH3 Commander Profiles? Download the SH3 Commander Portrait Pack here.

01-10-08, 09:29 AM	#6
M. Sarsfield Ace of the Deep Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Tulsa, OK Posts: 1,016 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	The the sub sims from the early days, including SH1, let you jettison debris out of one of the torpedo tubes to fake your death. I'd would like to see that get added back in. (I realize that this is off topic.) __________________ MJS USS Batfish Volunteer/Reenactor www.ss310.com www.ussbatfish.com Communism killed over 100M people and all that I got was this lousy signature.* *http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/COM.ART.HTM

01-10-08, 10:12 AM	#9
M. Sarsfield Ace of the Deep Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Tulsa, OK Posts: 1,016 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Maybe it is a signal tube, except that it's pretty horizontal. I would expect a signal tube to be vertical, but I'm not proficient in all WWII sub euipment. The tube that I saw was next to and in front of the number 2 and 4 stern tubes sticking out of the port pressure hull. It sort of reminded me of a torpedo tube, but miniature. It wasn't perpendicular to the hull, but probably was angled at 30 degrees horiziontal and maybe 15 degrees vertical (down). __________________ MJS USS Batfish Volunteer/Reenactor www.ss310.com www.ussbatfish.com Communism killed over 100M people and all that I got was this lousy signature.* *http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/COM.ART.HTM

01-10-08, 02:26 PM	#11
epower Watch Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 25 Downloads: 122 Uploads: 0	USS Barb deploys decoys Perhaps I can be of some use here. Been reading Fluckey's Thunder Below! and during Barb's 12th war patrol he recounts that on June 29, 1945, Barb was close inshore in shallow water, tracking merchants who were 1500 yards inside of the 15- fathom curve. After firing nine (!) torpedoes at a single ship for no hits (deep runners mostly) Barb was attacked by a destroyer. From Thunder Below!, page 340-341: Time 1332. "Sonar reports all torpedoes passed directly under target. Now fading out on same bearing... Time 1333. "Gierhart says he heard side throwers firi..."WHAM! WHAM! WHAM! WHAM! "All ahead one-third. Max, I can't hit him! How many evasion devices do we have on board? Bubblers, swim-out becons, everything." "Seventy-six." "FIRE THEM ALL!" "All?" "I said all. I need them now, before he attacks again. We have no other weapons for these depths. Barbas gpoing to leave here alive and kicking. Get cracking!" "Aye!" Max and Chuck sped off. "Jim, to delay the next attack until we get some evasion devices in the water, let's throw her a couple of full-speed knuckles. These will give her something to ping on until the beacons simulating a sub swim away from the tubes and make their own submarine noises. We're only 5500 yards off the beach, so don't let us run aground... Time 1340. Max returned breathlessly. "Captain, all five beacons are on their way and will be sounding off momentarily, as are the Pillenwurfer bubblers and gassers." "Sonar reports that there is so much noise in the water it has blanketed our all targets. Sonar is useless." Hope this helps.

01-10-08, 02:43 PM	#12
tater Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: New Mexico, USA Posts: 9,023 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 2	I'd say it's a fair bet they were in common use towards the end of 1944.

01-10-08, 03:03 PM	#14
M. Sarsfield Ace of the Deep Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Tulsa, OK Posts: 1,016 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	76 decoys are a lot of decoys for one boat. So, if we want to be accurate, we shouldn't start using the pillenwurfer modeled in the game until mid-'44. __________________ MJS USS Batfish Volunteer/Reenactor www.ss310.com www.ussbatfish.com Communism killed over 100M people and all that I got was this lousy signature.* *http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/COM.ART.HTM