The general's report

[Skybird]

I find this worth to take note of - and remember it. It is a long essay by Seymour Hersh on General Taguba's report about his examination of abhu Graib. the general forsaw the problems for him personally when he was ordered to conduct that exmaination. He is said that sometimes the Pentagon felt like a Mafia to him.

Gen. Taguba was fired early this year. His report was not what they wanted it to be. If he would have lied instead, the outcome probably wouldn't have been any different for him. Consider him a casualty of war.

There could be serious legal consequences for Rumsfeld for having lied under oath. This time he would not be sued from initiatives in foreeign countries, but the US. i honestly hope so. He and the others should be held responsbile for the crimes they commited, including lying, deception of the public, launching unprovoked war of aggression and assaulting a foreign sovereign nation. Much of the tens if not hundreds of thousands of deaths he - and others - must be given credit for.

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2...printable=true

Originally Posted by Gen. Taguba

“They always shoot the messenger,” Taguba told me. “To be accused of being overzealous and disloyal—that cuts deep into me. I was being ostracized for doing what I was asked to do.”

Taguba went on, “There was no doubt in my mind that this stuff”—the explicit images—“was gravitating upward. It was standard operating procedure to assume that this had to go higher. The President had to be aware of this.” He said that Rumsfeld, his senior aides, and the high-ranking generals and admirals who stood with him as he misrepresented what he knew about Abu Ghraib had failed the nation.

“From the moment a soldier enlists, we inculcate loyalty, duty, honor, integrity, and selfless service,” Taguba said. “And yet when we get to the senior-officer level we forget those values. I know that my peers in the Army will be mad at me for speaking out, but the fact is that we violated the laws of land warfare in Abu Ghraib. We violated the tenets of the Geneva Convention. We violated our own principles and we violated the core of our military values. The stress of combat is not an excuse, and I believe, even today, that those civilian and military leaders responsible should be held accountable.”

[The Avon Lady]

What about it? I read it from top to bottom.

That Bush and Rumsfeld were made aware of the abuses after the investigations began and let the military's investigative teams do the jobs they're assigned to do, without parading down Pennsylvania Avenue shouting out loud? So? Like wow!

And that in the end less than a dozen personnel were charged with the crimes? And that no one - not even Taguba - can place a finger on some more serious higher-ups being aware of the abuses BEFORE any investigation began, let alone finding anyone he can say with clarity instigated these abuses?

[Skybird]

I recommend to put toothpicks in your eyes to keep your lids open when reading it a second time.

[The Avon Lady]

Originally Posted by Skybird

I recommend to put toothpicks in your eyes to keep your lids open when reading it a second time.

You've described the boringness of Seymour's hash to a tee.

UPDATE: It's been a while since weve heard of Hersh. You should know what kind of a character you're dealing with:

Sy Hersh's loose relationship with the literal truth.

[Skybird]

So it means nothing that

- the CIA operates more secret prison camps than was previously known, for example in Mauretania and Ethiopia for covered airtransports to these places are easier to do than to secret priusons in Eastern europe,

- only the censored summary of the Taguba report was released to the public, while the 6000 pages-appendix alone should hold some dynamite according to sources who remain anonymous and claim to have had access to the complete work,

- Taguba got fired without prewarning and without giving reasons, while during his work he ran into serious resistance and adamant silence in the Pentagon,

- Taguba makes serious accusations against Rumsfeld and says he should be held accountable for having lied under oath abiout when he first saw the photos about Abu Ghraib - Taguba had finished and delivered his report roughly five months earlier than Rumsfeld claimed that first indices about Abu Ghraib had reached him and the government (first half of 2004),

- Taguba had serious difficulties to find senior officers to cooperate with the examination, instead found them to avoid getting involved, what tells something on the often claimed interest of the Pentagon to clear up it'S issues and scandals,

- Taguba delivered the report to "dozens" of adressess in the Pentagon - still the Pentagon remained silcne about the affair for months to come, and did not ract until coming under pressure from outside, which indicates a serious deficit in the politcal and congressional control of the civil political system over the internal proceedings of the military,

- Gen. Abizaidh apparently intimidated if not threatened Taguba personally when indicating to make not only the report but Taguba himself an object of examination, as is pointed out in a german essay describing a meeting of the two,

- Taguba was ordered to leave certain commandos' activities that apparently were linked to chasing Al Quaeda members and kill them, untouched, because - so claims Taguba - their activity were totally beyond control of Congress and should remain outside the counter-control and monitoring of civilian political instances that is nevertheless demanded by law,

- the examination of an internal army-team ended without results and apparanetly run against internal walls that again were to protect CIA hunter-killer commandos not only in Iraq, but a number of different countries. Note that several CIA personnels are sued [in absence) in european courts currently.

There is a reason why the military shall not be allowed to evade congressional control, in the US as well as in any other country where mechanism of civilian control over the military are established in laws and constitutions. Failing in that countercontrol means a hollowing-out of democracy, a shift of power from voted representatives to an isolated military elite, and thus the turning of a democracy into a tyranny. In this context I refer to the intense warnings in the farewell-speech of Eisenhower, and the example of the Third Reich.

So it is about what Taguba has to say on the issue, it is not about Hersh. You can ignore Hersh as long as you cannot prove that what he writes about Taguba and what he told Hersh is wrong quoted, or misinterpreted by Hersh.

[Heibges]

The secret prisons and the situation at Abu Graib were two seperate issues. As Avon Lady points out, after finding out about the disastrous PR situation at Abu Graib, it is little wonder they would want to cover it up.

The responsibility for Abu Graib lies with Colonel Janis Karpinski. Colonel Karpinksi is obviously your typical incompetent female officer. Like most female officers she lacked a take charge attitude, and her complete failure at her duties, allowed those folks at the prison to think they could get away with what they did. If this proves anything it proves that women have no business in the military. The one time in her life she was in charge of something important, she was a complete failure. Hurray for Equal Opportunity.

[The Avon Lady]

Originally Posted by Skybird

So it means nothing that

- the CIA operates more secret prison camps than was previously known, for example in Mauretania and Ethiopia for covered airtransports to these places are easier to do than to secret priusons in Eastern europe

There are/were no secret CIA prisons in Eastern Europe. Prove it.

Waiting.....................

- only the censored summary of the Taguba report was released to the public, while the 6000 pages-appendix alone should hold some dynamite according to sources who remain anonymous and claim to have had access to the complete work,

Yes, more famous anonymous sources. Always anonymous with Sy Hersh. Nothing verifiable.

Have a look at A Ghost In The Iraqi Prison to see the ups and downs of Hersh's career. To give a sample quote what Hersh's own camp have said long ago about him:

“I don’t read him anymore because I don’t trust him,” Max Holland, a Contributing Editor of the ultra-Leftist The Nation magazine, told the Columbia Journalism Review’s Sherman.

“I read what he writes with some skepticism or doubt or uncertainty,” said Newsweek Assistant Managing Editor Evan Thomas (who, incidentally, comes by his own Leftist politics as grandson of longtime Socialist presidential candidate Norman Thomas).

- Taguba got fired without prewarning and without giving reasons,

The entire source for this is Hersh's article. If you look at the latest news articles about Hersh's claims, they just state that Taguba retired. Anyway...............

while during his work he ran into serious resistance and adamant silence in the Pentagon,

Yep. Sounds like the Pentagon. Nothing new here. I would expect a response of "see/hear/speak no evil" from the Pentagon 99% of the time, today and 50 years ago, too. Nothing new here whatsoever.

- Taguba makes serious accusations against Rumsfeld and says he should be held accountable for having lied under oath abiout when he first saw the photos about Abu Ghraib

Please document for us when Rumsfeld actually saw the photos.

- Taguba had finished and delivered his report roughly five months earlier than Rumsfeld claimed that first indices about Abu Ghraib had reached him and the government (first half of 2004),

I don't put it beyond Rumsfeld to tell his personal assistant "don't show me those photos or tell me the details until you absolutely have to." I would actually assume that this happens in order to keep one's innocence on a legal technicality.

I have no problem sending Rumsfeld home. Oh...................... they did already.

- Taguba had serious difficulties to find senior officers to cooperate with the examination, instead found them to avoid getting involved, what tells something on the often claimed interest of the Pentagon to clear up it'S issues and scandals,

All that tells you is that everyone who could behaved like Sargeant Schultz on Hogan's Heros.

"I know nah-think!"
"I see nah-think!"

Heh-heh! My little ones make me watch an episode or 2 with them once in a while. :p

- Taguba delivered the report to "dozens" of adressess in the Pentagon - still the Pentagon remained silcne about the affair for months to come, and did not ract until coming under pressure from outside, which indicates a serious deficit in the politcal and congressional control of the civil political system over the internal proceedings of the military,

No problem with that opinion. Nothing new in suggesting better oversight for the undersight of various bureaucratic bodies. The military is not exempt. Nor are the Senate or Congress, for that matter.

One doesn't need Hersh to know this and it doesn't necessarily mean that someone's head MUST roll for it. Or maybe someone's head should. OK. Whatever.

- Gen. Abizaidh apparently intimidated if not threatened Taguba personally when indicating to make not only the report but Taguba himself an object of examination, as is pointed out in a german essay describing a meeting of the two,

So, we now have one side of the story, as told by Sy Hersh, an established twister of words and events.

I'll wait for the other side and it may not be forthcoming for reasons that would not give Hersh a scoop.

- Taguba was ordered to leave certain commandos' activities that apparently were linked to chasing Al Quaeda members and kill them, untouched, because - so claims Taguba - their activity were totally beyond control of Congress and should remain outside the counter-control and monitoring of civilian political instances that is nevertheless demanded by law,

There are indeed some things best left unknown. And the funny thing is that all of us here may have very well benefitted from it.

Maybe we'll just have to agree to disagree whether we are all shooting ourselves in the foot or not. Read The Trans-Atlantic Terror Divide.

- the examination of an internal army-team ended without results and apparanetly run against internal walls that again were to protect CIA hunter-killer commandos not only in Iraq, but a number of different countries. Note that several CIA personnels are sued [in absence) in european courts currently.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Good luck, Europe!

One day Europe will cry when it will be unable to do the necessary dirty work that others did for Europe as Europe simultaneously spat in face of the US.

There is a reason why the military shall not be allowed to evade congressional control, in the US as well as in any other country where mechanism of civilian control over the military are established in laws and constitutions. Failing in that countercontrol means a hollowing-out of democracy, a shift of power from voted representatives to an isolated military elite, and thus the turning of a democracy into a tyranny. In this context I refer to the intense warnings in the farewell-speech of Eisenhower, and the example of the Third Reich.

In the game of survival in Islam's war against the west, let's see whose democracy survives last: Europe's or the States.

That's not to say that all's permissable in times of war but life is nevertheless very different under the circumstances.

So it is about what Taguba has to say on the issue, it is not about Hersh. You can ignore Hersh as long as you cannot prove that what he writes about Taguba and what he told Hersh is wrong quoted, or misinterpreted by Hersh.

And why? Because Hersh says so? Circular reasoning.

Because Taguba says so? I'm sure he has plenty of bones to pick and justfiably so. But his words in the hands of a con artist like Hersh? Nope. Hersh isn't a mere messenger. He's a provocateur and and established liar to boot.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by The Avon Lady

That "dead" horse definitely talked! Beat it some more!:rotfl: