Problem with mark 14 torps

badb0y · 06-02-07, 07:23 PM

Is is just me or are these torpedos not very good?

Just did a 1942 mission where i got right into a convoy undetected. Primary targets were 2 large modern tankers.

Got myself so that i could fire forward at one and backwards at the other at the same time.

So, loosed off two torps at the first tanker and two at the second one - made off slowly and managed to get off two more mark 14s at a large modern composite freighter.

The first tanker starts burning in two places, the second in one, and the freigher doesn't even register a hole in the side even though i watched the tightly grouped torps hit virtually the same place!

Ok, so revisited the first tanker and had to pump another 4 torpedos into it until it went down. That means that out of i think 14 torpedos in forward banks that you can use i've used nearly half on one ship?? I gave up on the freighter (given that it appeared totally unaffected by two torpedo hits???).

I ended up surfacing in the middle of the convoy and tried gunning the second tanker until i realised that a destroyer had come right up behind me which remarkably hadn't even started firing lol! I think it wanted to depth charge me on the surface.

Anyway, my main point is that i've noticed this low damage from these topedos a lot in the game and it's frustrating. Also i tried a couple of shots 2 metres below the hull of one ship, expecting the "influence" from the ship to set them off. Nothing, i watched as they sailed right past the ship almost scaping the hull as they went. And yes, i had the right torp setting on (ie not contract only)

?? Any comments anyone please ??

donut · 06-02-07, 07:38 PM

That is a very good description,Of the very occurrences experienced around that time during WW2. There have been many:hmm: ?*#@%, discussions,on this feature/bug.

Welcome to Subsim badB0y.

popeye · 06-02-07, 08:07 PM

i think im having the same problem. it takes too many torp's to put some ships down. i just lost a medium merchant. i hit him twice, and the second shot put a gaping hole in his belly. he sank very low in the water, but made off with the cover of 3 destroyers, at 2 knots. 2 others were immobilized, and deck gunned, after the DD's had fled the area.

so, i fired 5 torps, and bagged 2 med. merchants. not so good.

badb0y · 06-02-07, 08:08 PM

arrrghh....

I need....satisfaction!!!

The, er, topedo type.

The thing is, if they explode, given that they are packed with explosives, right next to the hull of a ship, surely some serious damage must occur? I can "understand" duds, and have that realism setting on as a result, but exploding tops that do nothing or very little?

Can i ask another question here as well - i have been looking through the forums quite a bit on damage vs sink time.

Take that first tanker i hit - it was listing to about 45 degrees, been hit multiple times, and was still driving on. Surely once water's overtopping the deck that's history for the ship? I've never known or seen footage of a ship in that state make it back to port....?

badb0y · 06-02-07, 08:09 PM

this kinda puts me off playing the game as it takes so long to get into position and sort your firing solution out just to have ships not go down..?

gah...

wstaub · 06-02-07, 08:35 PM

Welcome to the real frustration felt by Sumariners until early to mid 1943 when the Mark XIV torpedos where corrected from many various bugs.

nattydread · 06-02-07, 08:48 PM

Keep in mind, that none of the merchants have cargo load outs. So a tanker doesnt have any combustibles on board to put a "cherry on top" of your torp hits.

Oddly I see in many posts that tankers were hard to sink, but I have never seen that as a re-occuring issue in my readings...and I've read tons of WWII sub memoirs(Barnes & Nobles ran out of books for me, N. and S. California).

I totally see how an empty tanker can hold on for dear life, but the frequency of stubborn tankers in game is troublesome to me.

I was also surprised to see how much resolve the troop transports/cruise ships were. I'm not saying they shouldnt be, they are just stronger than I expected.

ATR-42 · 06-02-07, 09:04 PM

later in the war, ive had MUCH MUCH better luck with the "pink" torpedos(mk17s?), i forgot the model number, but they seem to be much more reliable and powerfull. im on my 3rd career and im stuck with the mark 14s right now and i go through the same stuff you do, especially when they explode 100yards before the target !

but i know that skippers back in the day had the same frustrations so i keep on firing and make more trips for refits....

tycho102 · 06-04-07, 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by badb0y

Just did a 1942 mission where i got right into a convoy undetected. Primary targets were 2 large modern tankers.

?? Any comments anyone please ??

Set your torp as shallow as possible (2 meters) and fire at the actual tanks. If you can't tell where the tanks are located, you probably ought to take a look at a few historical photos on google. One shot is all it usually takes, but I typically fire two. If I fire them deep or mag, it takes 4 or more. Shallow has been very good to me for a whole bunch of tankers.

Cargo and troop boats are the ones you want mag shots as close to the keel and centerline as possible.

nattydread · 06-04-07, 06:39 PM

Yeah, I dont even fire torps with mag detonators active.

I try to mix the depths up and spread the love when I fire multiple fish, especially against tankers, in hopes I can get the water to flood in through the deep hole allowing it to push the oil upward to spill out the shallow hole...then I found out no tankers have anyting in their holds.

Taurolas · 06-06-07, 06:33 AM

Tankers can take one hell of a beating... i think you should read about the Ohio doing the malta run during WWII, and then you'll have greater respect for the amount of damage they can take and still continue on their merry way

Marko Ramius · 06-06-07, 07:14 AM

Well here's a true story:
On my second mission to the Solomon islands I come across one large modern tanker, unattended. I've had problems with these mammoths before so I take no chances and fire all six of my bow torps at her. They all hit home, one after the other. That only slowed her down a bit and she's got a gaping hole on the side and a small fire.
I cut in front of her and fire all 4 of my stern torps, no misses. Another gaping hole and I can now literally see through the ship.
No worries, she's still proudly making 5 knots! I'm a little angry now and meanwhile my bow torps are loaded so I turn the boat around and fire another six, all hits.
She's now listing heavily, she's ablaze and has slowed down to 3 knots but she doesn't mean to go down, so I wait a while to see if she will oblige. And sure enough, she's picking up speed again! I couldn't believe it!

Same drill again, I turn around and fire another four to finally see her slowly leave the surface...
20 torpedos...

tycho102 · 06-06-07, 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marko Ramius

one large modern tanker
unattended.
all six of my bow torps
she's still proudly making 5 knots!

Dude. You need to set your torps for 2 meters. As absolutely shallow as they go.
Then, you need to aim for the bloody tanks. Let me see if I can find a picture and circle it real quick.

There's always a crane boom or other structure denoting where the tank fillhole is. The tank is either fore or aft of that marker. You put two torps into the same tank, and it's going to drop very quickly from the secondary explosions.

badb0y · 06-07-07, 11:23 AM

?? Any comments anyone please ??[/quote]
Set your torp as shallow as possible (2 meters) and fire at the actual tanks. If you can't tell where the tanks are located, you probably ought to take a look at a few historical photos on google. One shot is all it usually takes, but I typically fire two. If I fire them deep or mag, it takes 4 or more. Shallow has been very good to me for a whole bunch of tankers.

Cargo and troop boats are the ones you want mag shots as close to the keel and centerline as possible.[/quote]

Ok your point/advice is taken but this then begs the question - aren't you going for a level of precision that the game simply does't cater for?
Your personal experience seems to bear you out but maybe the game itself simply randomised your success rate.

One further comment on this - as i've chosen later years, 1943 for e.g. - not only do you get better fish/torps, but also the mark14 fish seem to work better as well. Is this supposed to be the case or is this just an example of the game randomising the effect of effectiveness of a particular (on target) torpedo.

I am truly interested in how detailed the devs went in terms of different areas of a ship being vunerable. The only area i can see at the moment is landing bang on the engine room which i admit tends to cause a rather satisfying explosion more often than not.
One example, hit a propellor bang on - zero damage, ship moves ahead as per normal.
Another shot (diff ship) hits a little further up the boat - prop stops.

I'm just wondering where the line is between reality and poor dev design "mimicking" reality if you see what i mean.

tycho102 · 06-07-07, 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by badb0y

1. Ok your point/advice is taken but this then begs the question - aren't you going for a level of precision that the game simply does't cater for?
Your personal experience seems to bear you out but maybe the game itself simply randomised your success rate.

2. One further comment on this - as i've chosen later years, 1943 for e.g. - not only do you get better fish/torps, but also the mark14 fish seem to work better as well. Is this supposed to be the case or is this just an example of the game randomising the effect of effectiveness of a particular (on target) torpedo.

3. I am truly interested in how detailed the devs went in terms of different areas of a ship being vunerable. The only area i can see at the moment is landing bang on the engine room which i admit tends to cause a rather satisfying explosion more often than not. One example, hit a propellor bang on - zero damage, ship moves ahead as per normal.
Another shot (diff ship) hits a little further up the boat - prop stops.

1. With a guess, I've fired on at least 60 tankers. Both "small" and "large". The smalls have always blown themselves to hell on the first torpedo, wherever I shoot. What are they, like 1700 tons?

The larges I had trouble with at the beginning. I'd fire at the default 4 meters and it would take 4 torpedoes. Tried dropped to 8 and 10 meters, and got better success. Then I started messing with very shallow torps, and very quickly learned to fire them at the actual tanks. It is obvious when you hit the tanks because the thing goes down in ~1 minute. Sometimes it takes a second torpedo in the exact same place, sometimes it doesn't. Same thing with carriers -- I've put a carrier under in two shallow shots, and I've had carriers take 4 or 5 torps.

2. The detonator and depth-keeping were solved in around September 1943. It's probably "modeled" into the premature detonation rates, depth keeping problems, and the conical sections for detonator probability.

3. The engine rooms are usually right around the waterline, halfway between the superstructure and stern. It was the same way with SH3. Props couldn't be damaged, engine rooms could. This was a major issue with the acoustic torpedoes missing, then swinging around and nailing the props for no damage (or very, very little). Firing on the superstructure with the deck gun will kill the command crew and immobilize the ship, same as it did in SH3.
The interdependency of ship compartments is modeled.

I'll see about capturing some game movies this weekend.

06-02-07, 07:23 PM	#1
badb0y Swabbie Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 14 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Problem with mark 14 torps Is is just me or are these torpedos not very good? Just did a 1942 mission where i got right into a convoy undetected. Primary targets were 2 large modern tankers. Got myself so that i could fire forward at one and backwards at the other at the same time. So, loosed off two torps at the first tanker and two at the second one - made off slowly and managed to get off two more mark 14s at a large modern composite freighter. The first tanker starts burning in two places, the second in one, and the freigher doesn't even register a hole in the side even though i watched the tightly grouped torps hit virtually the same place! Ok, so revisited the first tanker and had to pump another 4 torpedos into it until it went down. That means that out of i think 14 torpedos in forward banks that you can use i've used nearly half on one ship?? I gave up on the freighter (given that it appeared totally unaffected by two torpedo hits???). I ended up surfacing in the middle of the convoy and tried gunning the second tanker until i realised that a destroyer had come right up behind me which remarkably hadn't even started firing lol! I think it wanted to depth charge me on the surface. Anyway, my main point is that i've noticed this low damage from these topedos a lot in the game and it's frustrating. Also i tried a couple of shots 2 metres below the hull of one ship, expecting the "influence" from the ship to set them off. Nothing, i watched as they sailed right past the ship almost scaping the hull as they went. And yes, i had the right torp setting on (ie not contract only) ?? Any comments anyone please ??

06-02-07, 07:38 PM	#2
donut The Old Man Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: The Shifting, Whispering Sands, NM Posts: 1,463 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	That is a very good description,Of the very occurrences experienced around that time during WW2. There have been many:hmm: ?#@%, discussions,on this feature/bug. Welcome to Subsim badB0y. Last edited by donut; 06-02-07 at 07:53 PM.*

06-02-07, 09:04 PM	#8
ATR-42 Commodore Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Jersey Shore Posts: 606 Downloads: 20 Uploads: 6	later in the war, ive had MUCH MUCH better luck with the "pink" torpedos(mk17s?), i forgot the model number, but they seem to be much more reliable and powerfull. im on my 3rd career and im stuck with the mark 14s right now and i go through the same stuff you do, especially when they explode 100yards before the target ! but i know that skippers back in the day had the same frustrations so i keep on firing and make more trips for refits.... __________________

06-06-07, 07:14 AM	#12
Marko Ramius Swabbie Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Melbourne Posts: 8 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	What's this tanker made of? Well here's a true story: On my second mission to the Solomon islands I come across one large modern tanker, unattended. I've had problems with these mammoths before so I take no chances and fire all six of my bow torps at her. They all hit home, one after the other. That only slowed her down a bit and she's got a gaping hole on the side and a small fire. I cut in front of her and fire all 4 of my stern torps, no misses. Another gaping hole and I can now literally see through the ship. No worries, she's still proudly making 5 knots! I'm a little angry now and meanwhile my bow torps are loaded so I turn the boat around and fire another six, all hits. She's now listing heavily, she's ablaze and has slowed down to 3 knots but she doesn't mean to go down, so I wait a while to see if she will oblige. And sure enough, she's picking up speed again! I couldn't believe it! Same drill again, I turn around and fire another four to finally see her slowly leave the surface... 20 torpedos...

06-02-07, 08:07 PM	#3
popeye A-ganger Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 77 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	i think im having the same problem. it takes too many torp's to put some ships down. i just lost a medium merchant. i hit him twice, and the second shot put a gaping hole in his belly. he sank very low in the water, but made off with the cover of 3 destroyers, at 2 knots. 2 others were immobilized, and deck gunned, after the DD's had fled the area. so, i fired 5 torps, and bagged 2 med. merchants. not so good.

06-02-07, 08:08 PM	#4
badb0y Swabbie Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 14 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	arrrghh.... I need....satisfaction!!! The, er, topedo type. The thing is, if they explode, given that they are packed with explosives, right next to the hull of a ship, surely some serious damage must occur? I can "understand" duds, and have that realism setting on as a result, but exploding tops that do nothing or very little? Can i ask another question here as well - i have been looking through the forums quite a bit on damage vs sink time. Take that first tanker i hit - it was listing to about 45 degrees, been hit multiple times, and was still driving on. Surely once water's overtopping the deck that's history for the ship? I've never known or seen footage of a ship in that state make it back to port....?

06-02-07, 08:09 PM	#5
badb0y Swabbie Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 14 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	this kinda puts me off playing the game as it takes so long to get into position and sort your firing solution out just to have ships not go down..? gah...

06-02-07, 08:35 PM	#6
wstaub Sailor man Join Date: May 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 45 Downloads: 2 Uploads: 0	Welcome to the real frustration felt by Sumariners until early to mid 1943 when the Mark XIV torpedos where corrected from many various bugs.

06-02-07, 08:48 PM	#7
nattydread Captain Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 498 Downloads: 2 Uploads: 0	Keep in mind, that none of the merchants have cargo load outs. So a tanker doesnt have any combustibles on board to put a "cherry on top" of your torp hits. Oddly I see in many posts that tankers were hard to sink, but I have never seen that as a re-occuring issue in my readings...and I've read tons of WWII sub memoirs(Barnes & Nobles ran out of books for me, N. and S. California). I totally see how an empty tanker can hold on for dear life, but the frequency of stubborn tankers in game is troublesome to me. I was also surprised to see how much resolve the troop transports/cruise ships were. I'm not saying they shouldnt be, they are just stronger than I expected.

06-04-07, 06:39 PM	#10
nattydread Captain Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 498 Downloads: 2 Uploads: 0	Yeah, I dont even fire torps with mag detonators active. I try to mix the depths up and spread the love when I fire multiple fish, especially against tankers, in hopes I can get the water to flood in through the deep hole allowing it to push the oil upward to spill out the shallow hole...then I found out no tankers have anyting in their holds.

06-06-07, 06:33 AM	#11
Taurolas Medic Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Notts UK Posts: 163 Downloads: 167 Uploads: 0	Tankers can take one hell of a beating... i think you should read about the Ohio doing the malta run during WWII, and then you'll have greater respect for the amount of damage they can take and still continue on their merry way

06-07-07, 11:23 AM	#14
badb0y Swabbie Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 14 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	?? Any comments anyone please ??[/quote] Set your torp as shallow as possible (2 meters) and fire at the actual tanks. If you can't tell where the tanks are located, you probably ought to take a look at a few historical photos on google. One shot is all it usually takes, but I typically fire two. If I fire them deep or mag, it takes 4 or more. Shallow has been very good to me for a whole bunch of tankers. Cargo and troop boats are the ones you want mag shots as close to the keel and centerline as possible.[/quote] Ok your point/advice is taken but this then begs the question - aren't you going for a level of precision that the game simply does't cater for? Your personal experience seems to bear you out but maybe the game itself simply randomised your success rate. One further comment on this - as i've chosen later years, 1943 for e.g. - not only do you get better fish/torps, but also the mark14 fish seem to work better as well. Is this supposed to be the case or is this just an example of the game randomising the effect of effectiveness of a particular (on target) torpedo. I am truly interested in how detailed the devs went in terms of different areas of a ship being vunerable. The only area i can see at the moment is landing bang on the engine room which i admit tends to cause a rather satisfying explosion more often than not. One example, hit a propellor bang on - zero damage, ship moves ahead as per normal. Another shot (diff ship) hits a little further up the boat - prop stops. I'm just wondering where the line is between reality and poor dev design "mimicking" reality if you see what i mean.