What would you prefer, when a game is published ?

[ACSoft]

I have already said somewhere else in this forum that the discovery time of a new game is UNIQUE and MAGIC. Now, it is often turned to a time of frustration and deception. Then after, instead of simply playing the game, you become more what I call a "customer-beta-tester". When finally, you can start to really enjoy the game, maybe after several months of patching, moding, etc... you already know the game like the background of your pocket and start already to think about the next version, probably with the secret hope, this time you will be able to really enjoy the discovery of the next version.

Would you return to a theatre 6 month later, to watch again a comedy or a drama, because the first time you went there, it was totally bad played, with actor not knowing their text and parts of the story simply missing ? Certainly not.

You the gamer and organization like Subsim, have the power to change that and the only way is to boyicot game which are obviously published that way.

Why ? Because publishers understand only the following words: Money, turnover, income, benefit, deficit. To my view, the policy Subsim apply now, which is in fact like many other similar forums, just help publishers to apply more and more this disrespectful attitude. This is obvious, because it allow them to reduce the risk, when they launch the development of a new game or new version of it. What is bad for a publisher ? It is to see the development budget not being held. So if they know they can publish the game, even if it is not finished and then wait to see if the starting turnover can justify the development of patches, they are happy.

Why SH3, after patch 1.4b was left in a state obviously still unfinished and with several well known bugs still not corrected ? I am personnaly convinced, it was just because of economical reasons. So beware, that one day will come, where you will not get any patch. The day when publishers will have pushed the ball a bit too far in this dangerous game, the day when casual gamers, which are not idiots, will not buy the game because too much bugs, too much unfinished.

Some will object that if publisher have to take too much risk, they may decide to not launch the development. Yes, this is a risk. But personnaly, I am convinced that if a potential maket exist, soon or late, somebody will take the risk to grab it.

The day simulation games will become marginal, in term of potential maket, this day, the genre will be abandonned with absolutely no soul state by the publishers, no matter the way it was going with the process of developing such a game.

ACS

[Reece]

What would you prefer, when a game is published:

Let me think .... This is a hard one ..... I know .... For it to work!

Originally Posted by ACSoft

I have already said somewhere else in this forum that the discovery time of a new game is UNIQUE and MAGIC. Now, it is often turned to a time of frustration and deception. Then after, instead of simply playing the game, you become more what I call a "customer-beta-tester". When finally, you can start to really enjoy the game, maybe after several months of patching, moding, etc... you already know the game like the background of your pocket and start already to think about the next version, probably with the secret hope, this time you will be able to really enjoy the discovery of the next version.

Would you return to a theatre 6 month later, to watch again a comedy or a drama, because the first time you went there, it was totally bad played, with actor not knowing their text and parts of the story simply missing ? Certainly not.

You the gamer and organization like Subsim, have the power to change that and the only way is to boyicot game which are obviously published that way.

Why ? Because publishers understand only the following words: Money, turnover, income, benefit, deficit. To my view, the policy Subsim apply now, which is in fact like many other similar forums, just help publishers to apply more and more this disrespectful attitude. This is obvious, because it allow them to reduce the risk, when they launch the development of a new game or new version of it. What is bad for a publisher ? It is to see the development budget not being held. So if they know they can publish the game, even if it is not finished and then wait to see if the starting turnover can justify the development of patches, they are happy.

Why SH3, after patch 1.4b was left in a state obviously still unfinished and with several well known bugs still not corrected ? I am personnaly convinced, it was just because of economical reasons. So beware, that one day will come, where you will not get any patch. The day when publishers will have pushed the ball a bit too far in this dangerous game, the day when casual gamers, which are not idiots, will not buy the game because too much bugs, too much unfinished.

Some will object that if publisher have to take too much risk, they may decide to not launch the development. Yes, this is a risk. But personnaly, I am convinced that if a potential maket exist, soon or late, somebody will take the risk to grab it.

The day simulation games will become marginal, in term of potential maket, this day, the genre will be abandonned with absolutely no soul state by the publishers, no matter the way it was going with the process of developing such a game.

ACS

I have to agree with this post. It seems that UBI is trying to increase profits by seeing how far they can push the limits of casual gamers by releasing games that are more and more unfinished and untested. Even casual gamers have limits.. whatever that may be.

[CrocodileDundee]

Originally Posted by ACSoft

Why SH3, after patch 1.4b was left in a state obviously still unfinished and with several well known bugs still not corrected ? I am personnaly convinced, it was just because of economical reasons. .
ACS

You got it sport! Funny thing is, 'economical reasons' could mean either:
- they got enough money from the sales and they thought there's no more market for it even if further improved
- they didn't get enough money so they didn't bother.

I don't necessarily believe they didn't get enough money since they started SHIV...:hmm:

Originally Posted by ACSoft

The day simulation games will become marginal, in term of potential maket, this day, the genre will be abandonned with absolutely no soul state by the publishers, no matter the way it was going with the process of developing such a game.
ACS

That's a bit unrealistic. Simulation games will always appeal. Let's admit it though, eye candys improve the whole thing a lot. Otherwise we all should be playing Dangerous Waters (my favourite, but with abysmal graphs). It's the graphics that require a lot of work to get it right. Plus you need some brilliant minds to create realistic AIs, then wrap the whole package and optimise for the casual gamer with his budget PC.

This is a purely personal opinion: UBI-Ro was originally created for console games. They're bright guys, but they're not necessarily sub buffs. It's just a job for them, remember that. And I'm assuming Ubi-France is not paying them a lot (since they're working in Eastern Europe - still EU allright, but just). Guess you get what you pay for, given the time frame.

[ACSoft]

Originally Posted by CrocodileDundee

You got it sport! Funny thing is, 'economical reasons' could mean either:
- they got enough money from the sales and they thought there's no more market for it even if further improved
- they didn't get enough money so they didn't bother.

I don't necessarily believe they didn't get enough money since they started SHIV:hmm: ...

The economical reason, to my view, was "enough free patch now, user will have to pay for the further improvements" and they started what became now SH4 (don't forget that initially SH4 was supposed to be an expansion pack for SH3).

Originally Posted by CrocodileDundee

That's a bit unrealistic. Simulation games will always appeal. Let's admit it though, eye candys improve the whole thing a lot. Otherwise we all should be playing Dangerous Waters (my favourite, but with abysmal graphs). It's the graphics that require a lot of work to get it right. Plus you need some brilliant minds to create realistic AIs, then wrap the whole package and optimise for the casual gamer with his budget PC.

I really hope you will be right, I love simulation games !

ACS

[joea]

Originally Posted by ACSoft

To my view, the policy Subsim apply now, which is in fact like many other similar forums, just help publishers to apply more and more this disrespectful attitude.

So...you're accusing Subsim of promoting buggy games or what?

[ACSoft]

Originally Posted by joea

So...you're accusing Subsim of promoting buggy games or what?

Not at all. I am fighting against the sad fact that more and more PC games communities, including this one, seem to consider now natural, to not say normal, that a game come on the market in the state like SH4 was published.

Yes, it is impossible to garantee that a complex piece of software will come out 100% bug-free, especially in the PC world, where you found so much different hardware & software configuration. But attention !!! Their is bug and bug.

A crash to desktop, which occur only on some PC of some infortunate users, yes. This is typically the kind of bug which will be always very difficult to avoid and I can accept that. But any obvious bug, that everybody hit after having played 5 minutes, sorry, but to my view, this is simply inadmissible, like it is to publish a game obviously unfinished.

Maybe Subsim think that to be severe toward such kind of game will be contra-productive. That it will not help to change the situation. Better to accept and just play the role of "customer-beta-tester". This is not my opinion at all and I have already explained why in an other message.

ACS

[tonyeh]

I understand both points of view. Products shipping with bugs especially a product as obviously buggy as SHIV is extremely annoying to the customer, both new and veteran. However, constant moaning about small issues solves nothing.

The main problem here is that SHIV was shipped with at least one MAJOR functionality bug, a show stopper and to me, that's just un-acceptable. Cosmetic bugs are aren't going to stop the game. But if a user presses an onscreen item essential to the game's functionality and the program stops or crashes EVERY TIME, then that is a non-starter IMHO.

The original poster is correct, if people keep buying software and not pointing out these faults, companies will simply keep shipping out unfinished work. I'm old enough to remember the days that when you bought a game it worked to an enjoyable degree out of the box. But the internet has made companies lazy when it comes to resolving QA issues. They can simply release what effectively is a beta and ship a patch later (usually with a promise of others to come. Which quite often don't).

I don't care what anyone says, but SHIV should NEVER have shipped without the major show-stoppers ironed out, even if it was just to save the credibility of the producer.

Tony

[bishop]

Originally Posted by ACSoft

Not at all. I am fighting against the sad fact that more and more PC games communities, including this one, seem to consider now natural, to not say normal, that a game come on the market in the state like SH4 was published.
ACS

Just curious, have you come to this conclusion by actually purchasing and playing the game yourself?

[ACSoft]

Originally Posted by bishop

Just curious, have you come to this conclusion by actually purchasing and playing the game yourself?

I don't really understand what conclusion do you mean ?

That the game was shamefully buggy & unfinised or something else ?

ACS

[bishop]

Originally Posted by ACSoft

I don't really understand what conclusion do you mean ?

That the game was shamefully buggy & unfinised or something else ?

ACS

Ok, I'll make it simple... have you bought and played the game yourself?

[Immacolata]

What is the point of this contentious poll? To invite more whingeing?

[RedHammer]

Hopefully not..
I believe the message is: Stop releasing games with so obvious bugs?

I approve with ACsoft`s opinion here. Even I have a limit, ofcourse, you guys are allowed your own opinion and are fully within the right to speak out.

So I might just as well grab my right to my loud opinion and critisism right now. And atleast be given the honour to ask: Ubisoft, Why did you release a game with such obvious bugs and flaws? (TDC Stadimeter.) (In-Game resolution un-changeable as well as other graphical features like HD-Bloom effects and such.) (DUD torpedoes and No Damage even tho both of theese are turned off.) (Crew members of sinking ship simply dying flat on the spot just before the water reaches them, life boats spawning 50 yards away instead of a loaring animation..)

Other then that, if I may add, the game looks great, and I haven`t given up on it, and am far away from boicotting it. I am just merely, by humble opinion indeed, pointing out that ACSoft has a point here, just as much as many had the right to boicott SH3 because of Starforce, people do have the right to boicott SH4 because of both bugs (Mentioned above.) and feature problems (Lack of historic knowledge: Lancaster bombers?? No Akagi class?, etc etc.) I could live with the Lancaster, but not without the Akagi (We are in the pacific Gentlemen.)

As said, I am looking forward to the patch, when I can use the TDC without bug`s, that is what I call atleast a good start And I am with no single intention trying to undermine Ubisoft directly, and do feel free to correct any/all my bug statements so far, I am not sure whether or not I got them right.

Ur friend in the Pacific Ocean.

Red Hammer

[ACSoft]

Originally Posted by Immacolata

What is the point of this contentious poll? To invite more whingeing?

Yes exactly, so then, you can comfort us and dry our tears

ACS

[John Channing]

AC:

I have discussed this with you in the forum and in PM's but I seem to be failing to get my message through to you.

No one at Subsim... not Neal or any of the Moderators, is preventing anyone from voicing their opinions, either pro or con.

They only thing we insist on is that you do it in a mature, respectful manner, and have respect for the other person's point of view.

There is no policy at Subsim that we take a stance either way on any issues.

If you have any questions please read the Subsim FAQ.

In fact, read it anyway. It is worth the time and effort.

Thanks

JCC