Revisionist history being taught in Europe?

[TheSatyr]

As some one who goes to multiple wargame sites I'm seeing more and more Europeans downplaying the USA's role in WW2.

They say things like "The USA's role in WW2 was minor and the USSR would have won the war on it's own".(Probably true,but the war would have gone on longer...and more countries would have been under the Communists thumbs when it was over.). Or,"The Pacific Theater was unimportant".(even though the Pacific War was the final nail in the coffin of European Colonialism in that region...except for a few exceptions like Hong Kong and Shanghai).

Another thing I'm seeing is a growing call for more WW2 games without any USA involvement.

Maybe I'm just seeing things that aren't there,but to me there seems to be an ongoing effort in Europe to downplay the USA's accomplishments in WW2.

A case in point being when SH4 was announced. A number of Europeans on the board immediately started complaining that it was going to be a sim of US subs,instead of it being what they wanted...which was yet another U-Boat sim. All the while claiming that the US boats didn't deserve having a game based on them because "they didn't do anything during the war" Losing 52 boats,sinking a large number of Japanese warships and destroying over half of what was the 3rd largest merchant fleet at the beginning of the war being "not doing anything" I guess.

I guess I'm just tired of seeing my Country's past accomplishments put down,denigrated and downplayed and the memory of our dead being insulted both in the PTO and the ETO just because of the world's views of the present administration. I've reached the point where I feel that if there is ever another war in Europe that the USA should just stay the hell out of it and let the Europeans kill each other all they want.

This is the first I've heard of such a thing. Some how it doesn't suprise me too much. Europe is on its way to another continental war. Nationalism is on the rise and political correctness and revisionist history will allow a new war to start in the not too distant future. The Germans will loose again.

That is my opinion.

[Kapitan_Phillips]

I've always wanted them to make a WW2 game from the other sides perspective. It'd be a nice change to see what it was like to have the Allies closing in and having few places to run to.

But naturally, if I'd said that anywhere other than here, no doubt I'd get people calling me a Nazi or a Commie or some other name.

[Subnuts]

Originally Posted by waste gate

This is the first I've heard of such a thing. Some how it doesn't suprise me too much. Europe is on its way to another continental war. Nationalism is on the rise and political correctness and revisionist history will allow a new war to start in the not too distant future. The Germans will loose again.

How are the Germans going to lose if the Americans aren't around to singlehandedly kick their asses? :rotfl:

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by Subnuts

How are the Germans going to lose if the Americans aren't around to singlehandedly kick their asses? :rotfl:

The Americans did not do it single handedly.

Keep it clean men.

[Skybird]

I do not realise an intention here. But I know that many people over here got tired of "USA here", "USA there", and "nothing without USA".

How to weight the war efforts of the many countries is not easy to judge. USA was a great contributor of weapons and materials, and these were one decisive factor to beat Nazi Germany. But without wanting to downplay American losses (ranking amongst the lowest of all major nations) - the real heavy deathtolls were payed by other countries, bot Allies and Axis. Without the not less decisive stubborness of the British, and the not less decisive self-sacrificng combat-spirit of the Russians, these material contributions would have been not sufficient by themselves.

Maybe one only needs to see the US efforts and sacrifices in an exaggerated way, then opinions putting them into relation to other nations' investements maybe appear to sound as downplaying the US role completely. See the complete picture. US was one participant in the war - but not the only one.

[SUBMAN1]

Originally Posted by Skybird

See the complete picture. US was one participant in the war - but not the only one.

That is true, the Brits were a major contributor, and the Russians self sacrafice (Well, this is a missnomer since it wasn't self sacrafice, it was Stalanist forced sacrafice or excution - which is more noble?).

However, Germany had the power to take on Russia and the British at the same time. Only when the Americans entered the war did things turn.

One more thing people forget, AMerica almost single handedly defeated the Japanese at the same time it was forcing its way across Europe.

Its amazing to see people write that America had no hand in WWII. Its actually disgusting and the half million US troops that died over there must be turning in their graves.

-S

PS Do people think for a second that Japan would start attacking Russia from the opposite side if it wasn't worried about AMerica? Russia would have been defeated and we would all be speaking German right now.

Originally Posted by Skybird

But without wanting to downplay American losses (ranking amongst the lowest of all major nations) - the real heavy deathtolls were payed by other countries, bot Allies and Axis.

For one reason only:
"No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country.
He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country."
George S. Patton

We were there to win!!

Originally Posted by Subnuts

How are the Germans going to lose if the Americans aren't around to singlehandedly kick their asses? :rotfl:

Perhaps that is the reason the Brits are keeping their Trident capability and the French aren't even debating whether or not to keep their nuclear arms. They know the Germans only too well.

[SUBMAN1]

Originally Posted by TheSatyr

As some one who goes to multiple wargame sites I'm seeing more and more Europeans downplaying the USA's role in WW2.

They say things like "The USA's role in WW2 was minor and the USSR would have won the war on it's own".(Probably true,but the war would have gone on longer...and more countries would have been under the Communists thumbs when it was over.). Or,"The Pacific Theater was unimportant".(even though the Pacific War was the final nail in the coffin of European Colonialism in that region...except for a few exceptions like Hong Kong and Shanghai).

Another thing I'm seeing is a growing call for more WW2 games without any USA involvement.

Maybe I'm just seeing things that aren't there,but to me there seems to be an ongoing effort in Europe to downplay the USA's accomplishments in WW2.

A case in point being when SH4 was announced. A number of Europeans on the board immediately started complaining that it was going to be a sim of US subs,instead of it being what they wanted...which was yet another U-Boat sim. All the while claiming that the US boats didn't deserve having a game based on them because "they didn't do anything during the war" Losing 52 boats,sinking a large number of Japanese warships and destroying over half of what was the 3rd largest merchant fleet at the beginning of the war being "not doing anything" I guess.

I guess I'm just tired of seeing my Country's past accomplishments put down,denigrated and downplayed and the memory of our dead being insulted both in the PTO and the ETO just because of the world's views of the present administration. I've reached the point where I feel that if there is ever another war in Europe that the USA should just stay the hell out of it and let the Europeans kill each other all they want.

I don't believe the Soviets could have won. Regardless who says what, the US an its ALlies tied up a tremendous amount of German hardware on the Western Front. I think Germany and the Soviets would have ground to a halt at somewhere inside Russia and some sort of ceasefire would have been formed if the US wasn't involved. Just my opinion.

Your statements that you make that other people have said sound almost like the Iranian pres saying the Jews were never murdered by Germany! DOn't believe it.

-S

[STEED]

Originally Posted by SUBMAN1

I don't believe the Soviets could have won. Regardless who says what, the US an its ALlies tied up a tremendous amount of German hardware on the Western Front. I think Germany and the Soviets would have ground to a halt at somewhere inside Russia and some sort of ceasefire would have been formed if the US wasn't involved. Just my opinion.

Sorry Subman1, but you over looked some issues. First of all Germany could not fight a long war they had one all mighty weakness, that was oil. Germany may a critical error attacking the golden goose of U.S.S.R the logistical planning was dreadful no long term planning what so ever and no planning for winter. Hitler said it in his own words "We must take Russia in six months or it all would be for nothing." The German army was running in to problems as early as July 1941 out running there supply's.

By August / September 1941 they had a big problem on there hands which they had to deal with, that problem was Kiev. There is no way they could drive to Moscow with such a large pocket there in Kiev. The result was they had lost there chance for Moscow, around this time Hitler was changing his plans left, right and centre. Kiev no Stalingrad no Leningrad back to Kiev, Moscow again and so on.

Operation Typhoon was to far late in the day, over two thirds of there tanks had broken down and they called upon horse power how poor was that. Hitler had lost the gamble and lost many troops in the not one step back order.

You look at the soviet losses they were incredible and yet they fought on with what they had. Hitler now moved against Stalingrad in 1942 and yes the Germans were on the move again but they failed to learn the lessons of 1941. And here is the key thing Stalin ordered Operation Mars against Kharkov which ended in a mess but Stalin backed off and let his generals get the job done, unlike Hitler who took it upon himself to run the whole of the Ost Front.

Here is another thing the Germans missed out on in August and September on the Southern front, they controlled the Sky's and could have bombed the major oil fields which would had resulted in a major problems for a good six months to the Russians, but no they had to take them and no one planned out how the hell they were to get that oil back to Germany.

Stalingrad saw the loss of the elite six army and part of the fourth Panzer army for what?


The Soviets now had the upper hand they knew the German tactics, true the Germans stopped the Southern front collapsing when they pulled off the remarkably recapture of Kharkov in March 1943. But Army Group centre suffered a defeat which resulted in another Hitler blunder.

Kursk 1943 saw the last major German assault and the greatest tank battle of WW2. Hitler lost the gamble and was taken by surprise when the Russians went over to the attack after blunting the Germans. Germans losses at this battle resulted in the greatest defeat to come.

1944 saw the destruction of Army group Centre when the Russians launched Operation Bagration and the liberation of Eastern Europe. Yes the Soviets made some bad errors one was the Battle of the Seelow Heights and Berlin 1945 saw them shelling there own side in error.

Germany bled her best troops white in Russia and we in the West faced second line troops, granted not all the time. Hitler failed on his planning of Russia failed to fully motorise the troops failed to produce large number of tanks failed in logistics the list just goes on and on. The German army was the greatest army in 1940/41 but they were wasted on a lost cause with Russia. Even with no supply's from us Russia would had still won by 1946/7 one more thing Germany production was not stepped up until 1943 and by then it was to little and to late.

Subman1, this is not a history lesson just food for thought.

[SUBMAN1]

Originally Posted by STEED

Subman1, this is not a history lesson just food for thought.

I agree for the most part. Germany needed Africa for the oil as well. Oil was its biggest weakness. I still doubt that they would have been defeated completely like they were however without the work of all three nations.

Also, as said above, we can thank Hitler for some of his grave errors.

-S

[STEED]

Originally Posted by SUBMAN1

I agree for the most part. Germany needed Africa for the oil as well. Oil was its biggest weakness. I still doubt that they would have been defeated completely like they were however.

Also, as said above, we can thank Hitler for some of his grave errors.

-S

Hear, hear.

If Germany had a different leader who was not a psychopath then well, what if.........?

And if the Communist had failed to take Russia?

So many what ifs.

[STEED]

One thing is for sure WW2 helped America out of recession and I am grateful for there sacrifice in Europe for there help to bring down a monster and his evil vision.

[TteFAboB]

Don't judge Europe by its gamers or its youth (of mind). The time you spend playing a game is a time you don't spend reading a book. These opinions aren't worth 2c.

If you want to judge the entire continent you'll need more than anecdotes. I'd say: compare SHIII sales with SHIV sales in Europe. And if somebody knows how to calculate this: compare the piracying of SHIII with that of SHIV. Compare reviews and scores.

See you in a few months then, when I get this data on my hands.