LuftWolf and Amizaur's Realism Mod Poll #14: SLMM vs CAPTOR

[LuftWolf]

It is well known that the Mk60 CAPTOR mine can be submarine launched, so I'm wondering what you folks think about replacing the SLMM on the US submarines with the Mk60 CAPTOR Mine.

The submarine launched Mk60 CAPTOR Mine will have all the features of the air dropped CAPTOR, as well as a 4nm max range and 31kts max speed when under its own power to reach its enable point, at which time it will automatically stop and then behave exactly like the air dropped version of the weapon.



Cheers,
David

[Molon Labe]

Most missions invoving subs laying mines call for the use of conventional mines... clogging up a harbor, blocking an ARG, etc. I don't see ASW mining as being more important than those missions.

[Dr.Sid]

Yeh .. subs uses mines against surface ships. Captor is anti-sub weapon.

P3 moves fast, so it can use captor to block escape route for sub and then attack it. Sub has no reason to use the captor instead of torpedo.

So I'd say, leave SLMM for subs. Not that they are used much, but captor would be even more useless.

[Bellman]

This would be a lot of fun in MP but I can see SP missions beeing messed-up....unless it can be an easily switched option.

But I vote yes !

[Molon Labe]

It's a strategic weapon in a tactical game either way. Deal with it.

And keep the more versatile weapon.

[Fandango]

Originally Posted by Bellman

...unless it can be an easily switched option.

That's the trick...

[LuftWolf]

Well... in looking closely at it, the only real selectible option I have is to have the range the weapon is set to travel be the determining factor... which is not ideal.

So, preliminarily, the way it would work is... to set the mine to be a CAPTOR, set it to travel under 4nm. If you want the mine to be a conventional mine, set it to travel greater than 4nm, out to 11nm max range.

It's not really great, IMHO, but that's the apparent option if you want it both ways...

Cheers,
David

PS I should add, I really don't like this option.

[Molon Labe]

[Dr.Sid]

Why shoot captors from sub when you can shoot torpedo ? Give me one example where it would be an advantage.

P3 is different, because it does not know exact location of target. It also moves really fast. It can use minefields in tactical way.

Sub has no reason. Launching captor is only risk of counterdetection.

Well .. now I have found a usage. Imagine you have unknown contact pretty far away. Looks like sub, but you don't know if friendly or hostile (very rare situation anyway, because of 50/60Hz line). So you shoot your captor toward the target, knowing, that captor can make the distinction as it gets close. Question is .. do we want such usage ?

[SeaQueen]

Originally Posted by LuftWolf

It is well known that the Mk60 CAPTOR mine can be submarine launched, so I'm wondering what you folks think about replacing the SLMM on the US submarines with the Mk60 CAPTOR Mine.

CAPTORs are sort of a Cold War thing. If I could have them without giving up something it'd be great, but I don't want to lose the SLMM.

It'd be nice if there were a lot of things in DW that aren't there, but in general it's only a rare thing that I miss them. I either think of proxies such that the essentials are preserved even things are different in name, or just do without.

[Bellman]

The 'fun' use of sub launched Captors could be in tactical sub v sub team MP. Its easy to recall many situations where this could be effective, egs. flushing round islands, passages and chokepoints. The real point is that laying a Captor trap could free that sub for other action either in that particular tactical 'engagement' or in another. But this issue highlights a developing problem.

The easy 'switching' I had in mind was not changing weapon functionality settings within the game (as shown by LWs range spec.) but a swapping of the relevant file. I foresee with increasing complexity, which many of us welcome, that some players will baulk at the new features that LwAmi is set to introduce.
egs. ATC. (Advanced torpedo control.)

There are also many differences in requirement between SP and MP players on several technical issues and also between those who do, or dont, require the challenge of added reality complexity. It would be great if LwAmi offered additional selectability either in the form of 'Options' or by having separate LwAmi JSGME switchable versions. Perhaps these could be targeted at user groups ?

Increased user friendliness and flexibility could ensure that LwAmi stays at the cutting edge and prevent the potential disaffection of some players.

[XabbaRus]

I think it should be left well alone.

Putting the CAPTOR on the P-3 was fine as the scenarios used in DW would permit good use of the weapon.

Replacing the SLMM with the CAPTOR is a bad idea in that the SLMM is used primarily for ASUW blocking up choke points etc and that is quite useful and in a good few scenarios. CAPTOR is an ASW weapon. Having it switchable via doctrine depending on what range you set is a messy and I think confusing way of doing it. Unless SCS give us the ability to at least alter hard coded loadouts I think we should leave them alone and concentrate on AI stuff.

If we start having different available loadouts but they can't be controlled through the loadout screen but are selectable depending on variable processed via doctrine depending on fire control settings is to me clumsy.

Best to petition SCS to have access to at least the loadout dlls, or live with what we have.

[Bill Nichols]

Originally Posted by LuftWolf

It is well known that the Mk60 CAPTOR mine can be submarine launched, so I'm wondering what you folks think about replacing the SLMM on the US submarines with the Mk60 CAPTOR Mine.

The submarine launched Mk60 CAPTOR Mine will have all the features of the air dropped CAPTOR, as well as a 4nm max range and 31kts max speed when under its own power to reach its enable point, at which time it will automatically stop and then behave exactly like the air dropped version of the weapon.



Cheers,
David

I know of no such weapon (self-propelled sub-launched CAPTOR). When launched from a sub, the CAPTOR simply drops its 'anchor' where it was deployed. Furthermore, CAPTOR doesn't fit in well with today's emphasis on littoral ops.

"About 2,500 Mk60 ASW CAPTOR (enCAPsulated TORpedo) mines are being phased out because, as deepwater weapons, they do not meet the shallow-water littoralconflict needs of the future. Planned to be retired by the end of 2001." SEAPOWER Magazine, July 2000

I vote to keep the SLMM, which is something I am familiar with and gives a unique capability to the game.

"The SLMM is a self-propelled, torpedo-like weapon that travels underwater after leaving the submarine and comes to rest on the seafloor at the end of the run. The mine is then activated and can attack passing surface ships or submarines. This is the U.S. Navy's only self propelled mine, with an electric motor providing a range of some 17,000 yards."

If you really want something different, then how about the Improved SLMM?


"Because their covertness permits them to enter waters denied to surface ships or aircraft, submarines can be highly effective in both minelaying and mine reconnaissance. Most attack submarines can carry the Submarine Launched Mobile Mine (SLMM) as part of their weapon loadout. Indeed, the Submarine Force keeps a fixed number of SLMMs on forward-deployed boats to fulfill specific Theater CINC warfighting requirements.


Improved Submarine-Launched Mobile Mine (ISLMM)

"Because of the significant “force-multiplier” value of naval mines, the Navy has decided to pursue an innovative modification of early variants of the Mk 48 heavyweight torpedo to an Improved SLMM configuration. A joint effort with the Royal Australian Navy, ISLMM will provide the covert capability to plant minefields from a safe standoff distance throughout the world’s littoral regions, to interdict military and hostile commercial traffic, and thereby support sea control and battlespace dominance needs. ISLMM characteristics offer increased range and precision placement accuracy, course-change capabilities, low-cost maintenance, and greater loadout for the delivery submarine compared to the obsolescent Mk 67 SLMM. Armed with two warheads [which can be dropped separately], each ISLMM will be able to attack two separate targets. The Mk 48-based delivery vehicle will be compatible with all current and future submarine weapons-handling rooms and launch tubes." UNDERSEA WARFARE MAGAZINE, Issue #3

[Dr.Sid]

Those are some serious arguments, Bill. So '8000yds, 28kts' are parameters of the torpedo ? Those are mentioned anywhere on the net.

But it can be clearly seen on pictures that CAPTOR itself has no propeller. Only the torpedo inside has one.

http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WAMUS_Mines.htm


Such weapon has even less usage options in DW I guess.

PS: how long can CAPTOR stay on watch ? I didn't find it mentioned anywhere. I know it has fuel-based energy plant, nothing more.

[LuftWolf]

Hmm...

Upon further review, it would appear that 8000yrds @ 28+kts are the BS stats given for the Mk46.

Thanks for the clarification, Bill.

SLMM it shall stay.

This is why I do polls, so I don't embarass myself too much.

Thanks for the responses everyone.

Cheers,
David

PS I'm going to look at the ISLMM now. :hmm: