GWX: Uber Allied Detection that does not occur in GW1.1

[Koinonos]

I installed GWX and began playing and attempt to see how the Destroyer/Flower Corvette/Escort ships intelligence was and it appears to be expert always.

I am submitting this post in the hopes that other test and find the same issues that I have that may force me back to Grey Wolves 1.1a. The tests below do appear to confirm that GWX has an Uber AI detection bug as they always fail even with an Uber Quiet sub. The same tests in my SH3/Grey Wolves 1.1a always pass as the ships have the expected AI.

Setup:
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Install #1 - SH3, 1.4 patch, and GW 1.1a - No other mods
Install #2 - SH3, 1.4 patch, and GWX - No other mods

Subs:
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1.) Standard 1939/1940 VII sub

2.) Uber equipped VIIC with 1943 equipment available in Jan 1940 to determine if improved sub and stealth equipment helps to minimize detection or boost getaway chances. This means Alberiche anti-sonar coating, 1st gen sub decoy, and 1/3 speed reduced to .20 from .26 to make it's noise signature as low as possible.

Example of Uber AI found in GWX:
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Test #1
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In Sept, 1939 I took a VIIB out and completely silent, submerged, no snorkel, at full stop, at just under 1000 yards away from the path of DD my sub's Stealth meter went Red, and went silent 5 miles before the DD showed up. That smack of DD crews either being set for Expert/Elite (in 1939?) or they are running their ADSIC on always - yet I don't hear it on sonar (bug?)

So I decided to test this and created a modified basic.cfg to allow VIIC, Alberiche anti-sonar coating, and the first version noisemaker decoy and modifed 1/3 speed to be .20 instead of it's default to make the sub as quiet as possible for January of 1940 when the Allied crews have essentially had no combat time.

RESULTS:
GWX: No matter how stealthy you set it up. If you are within 900 meters (especially within 400 meters) of a DE/DD/Armed Trawler dead quiet, submerged, and stealthy miles before they even show up you will be detected no matter whether you have a basic 1939 VIIB or an Unber 1943 sub.
GW1.1: The Destoyer never detects me, even in 1943/44 since the sub made no movement or action to create any noise to give my position away.



TEST #2 - Does a early 1940 Armed Trawler have Uber detection AI? Yep..
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So with 1942 Uber VIIC in hand I took it over to Bristol at night, torpedoed a docked ship to get an Jan, 1940 Armed Trawler's attention from 1500 meters away, and then cruised past it at 1,000 meters with my Uber Quiet submarine (stealth status is green), Silent running set, periscope down, and at 25 meter depth @ 2knots.

The moment my sub hit 999 meters (inside of 1000) as a suspected - My stealth meter went immeadiately Red, the Armed Trawler acquired me and after attempting multiple attempts to shake it using techniques frequent discussed including the noisemaker I could not get a 1942 Alberiche noisemaker decoy sub to shake a simple Armed Trawler in January of 1940.

RESULTS:
GWX: After ten attempts the results were the same with the 1939 VIIB or the Uber 1943 VIIC. If you get within 1,000 meters (even completely stopped and submerged) you will be detected without ASDIC.
GW1.1a: 50% of the time the 1939 VIIB could slip away undetected. Around 90% of the time with our Uber sub as to be expected even with active ASDIC on so long as you were >400 meters away.


TEST #3 - Can I sneak up to within 1,000 meters of a unspecting/unalerted Port with my Ubersub without automagically being detected at 2am? Not anymore.
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My next test was to reload and come up on ships docked in a unsuspecting harbor (with no military activity anywhere from Kiel and no plane or ship detection to ensure a good test). Running @ 2knots with said uber 1942 sub with Alberiche coating the moment I got to within 1000 meters of the ships my stealth meter immeadiately went Red, within 500 meter and their lights came on and all Trawlers/DE/DD destroyers docked had their search lights on.

RESULTS:
GWX: If you come within 600-900 meters of a enemy port a ship docked *will* detect you no matter what you do.
GW1.1: You can cruise around in a port with near impunity @2 knots until you make some significant noise or expose the sub on the surface.


I *really* think GWX is cool and I *really* want to play it. But not until I can figure out how to prevent automatic/always detection that I observed, reproduced, and documented above.

Does anyone have any ideas about how to dial down GWX's apparent Uber detection by any ship? Is there a way to transplant GW 1.1's AI instead?

[Corsair]

You should imho first stop using the stupid stealth meter, then re-think your tactics (showing little profile for instance, going down to 1 knt instead of 2, etc..) U-boats were there to sink merchant shipping at sea, not to troll around inside british harbours...
PS : re the ASDIC you don't hear, the DDs have also good hydrophones. You can at night get closer running surfaced than submerged if you are careful with the profile you show and not speeding.

[Pants]

Originally Posted by Corsair

You should imho first stop using the stupid stealth meter, then re-think your tactics (showing little profile for instance, going down to 1 knt instead of 2, etc..)

Agreed, don't depend on the stealth meter..you will know if you have been "detected" when ship alters course to either intercept you ( escorts ) or try to evade you ( merchants )
Like we keep saying you need new tactics with GWX, running with your scope fully up will cause wakes...enemy ships will spot the wakes, getting in close during day time they will spot your underwater Silhouette, Firing a steam torp you will see the escorts change course and head towards where the torp can from. And they have better opics than you.

Like KL keeps saying the rough weather and night time are your best allies

[mr chris]

True you need new tatics in GWX
Think like a real U-Boat Kpt
Pants since when have you been stealthy? :rotfl: :rotfl: J/K mate

[Pants]

Originally Posted by mr chris

Pants since when have you been stealthy? :rotfl: :rotfl: J/K mate

Ermm...when staring down the barrels of a BB..then i go stealthy :p

[mr chris]

Originally Posted by Pants

Ermm...when staring down the barrels of a BB..then i go stealthy :p

Ah a man after my own heart

[Pants]

Originally Posted by E.B. Fluckey

I believe his point is that no matter what you do, if you are withing 1000 meters of any enemy warship you will be detected. Even if you are silent, scope down. Even if they are docked and half the crew are in the whore houses.

This seems like a valid bug report. Why dismiss it so quickly as operator error?

Originally Posted by Pants

Agreed, don't depend on the stealth meter..you will know if you have been "detected" when ship alters course to either intercept you ( escorts ) or try to evade you ( merchants )
Like we keep saying you need new tactics with GWX, running with your scope fully up will cause wakes...enemy ships will spot the wakes, getting in close during day time they will spot your underwater Silhouette, Firing a steam torp you will see the escorts change course and head towards where the torp can from. And they have better opics than you.

Like KL keeps saying the rough weather and night time are your best allies

Already answered this, i did not mention anything about operator error, just saying change your tactics.

[mr chris]

The is a saying in the Army which runs true for GWX.
It is similar to what Danlisa said. But here goes.
Impervise, adapt and overcome

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by mr chris

The is a saying in the Army which runs true for GWX.
It is similar to what Danlisa said. But here goes.
Impervise, adapt and overcome

We have a saying in the police Force..."If at first you don't succeed...p*ss off and go home" lol

[hyperion2206]

Originally Posted by Pants

Already answered this, i did not mention anything about operator error, just saying change your tactics.

You have to change your tactics but a 100% detection rate is IMHO a bit to high. 75% would be more realistic. But that's just my opinion.

[Laffertytig]

ok heres my scenario in the med in june 1942. was spotted by a group of 4 destroyers at night and crashed dived, destroyers pinged me and made a couple of dd passes. i dived to 160 metres, went to 3 knots and rigged for silent running. they stopped pingin and droppin dd's but kept circling me for over 1 hour game time. cos they werent pingin i thought they must hear me so went to 0 knots and waited. yet after another hour they are still circling, no pinging no depth charges.

surely a sub at 160 metres, 0 knots and rigged for silent running shouldnt be heard by hydrophones? have they forgotten they have asdic?? and if they can hear me for some weird reason why arent they attacking me??

i realise this aint a GWX problem just the retarded AI at its best. how can it be so hard to program detroyers to act like destroyers, hell they done it in SH1 after all!

has anyone had any joy using any other AI mod?

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by Laffertytig

ok heres my scenario in the med in june 1942. was spotted by a group of 4 destroyers at night and crashed dived, destroyers pinged me and made a couple of dd passes. i dived to 160 metres, went to 3 knots and rigged for silent running. they stopped pingin and droppin dd's but kept circling me for over 1 hour game time. cos they werent pingin i thought they must hear me so went to 0 knots and waited. yet after another hour they are still circling, no pinging no depth charges.

surely a sub at 160 metres, 0 knots and rigged for silent running shouldnt be heard by hydrophones? have they forgotten they have asdic?? and if they can hear me for some weird reason why arent they attacking me??

i realise this aint a GWX problem just the retarded AI at its best. how can it be so hard to program detroyers to act like destroyers, hell they done it in SH1 after all!

has anyone had any joy using any other AI mod?

4 destroyers?????? No wonder they had a field day with you. All 4 working together.....perhaps it would have been best to turn on your heels and leave. I would be hard pressed to attack with 4 destroyers hanging around. Put that is just me.

Ok, as far as going silent and all stop. Of couse the destroyers will still circle your last known contact point. They know you did not blast off to the other side of the ocean....they know you are sitting below...just do not have the exact location. Seems realistic to me.....what, did the warships detect and lose contact then move on 5 minutes later....NO, they hung out in hopes to detect you again. Come on folks, you are not going to dive, go silent then have the warships move on 5 minutes later. Complete hog wash. They would circle and keep you down if they could take all day to do so they did.

Furthermore, I went by a destroyer on the surface on a clear night at 500m undetected.Hell, I was doing 10 knots and making all kinds of noise. The destroyer went on by and did not flinch. This was 1939. Furthermore I evaded an armed trawler and destroyer without issue. I was submerged at 1 kt and countered every search pattern they used. I got close to the bottom in hopes to throw off the ASDIC.

The time for arcade warships is over. "BE MORE AGGRESSIVE"

One more thing....did every u-boat that used every method of evasion work? NO! Be prepared to give up on some patrols and become a prisioner of war! Thanks GWX for making it real!

[sergbuto]

Originally Posted by Laffertytig

has anyone had any joy using any other AI mod?

I still have a joy with vanilla SH3. Convoy escorts/destroyers are pictured quite well. Realistic behavior in my opinion. In RL, in early war, British did not even know that U-boats can go that deep and had depth charges with possible maximum depth setting of only 91 m.

The worst enemies of U-boats were aircrafts and hunter-killer groups, not convoy escorts. The later had a job to protect ships in convoy, not to hunt one sub for hours thus giving the opportunity for other subs to destroy the convoy.

In SH2, escorts/DDs were too tough in this respect and I think that SH3 devs did quite a decent job in getting this right.

[hornetsting]

Here is a link where you can download a zipfile from CB

I have installed it and gwx is now really great.


http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...t=86629&page=5

[ref]

Originally Posted by hornetsting

Here is a link where you can download a zipfile from CB

I have installed it and gwx is now really great.


http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...t=86629&page=5

Are you talking about AIFight2.zip?
If it's that file you're breaking up a lot of thing in GWX, that file not only modifies AI_Sensors, it also changes command files, sim files (most of which are NOT COMPATIBLE with GWX files, rendering the ships useless), etc.

JUST TO BE CLEAR THIS IS AN OLD MOD AND NOT APPROVED FOR GWX


Ref