AIP subs leaving our navy in the dust

[sharp]

Our cuts in funding of submarine research and development have severely crippled us in the next gen. sub warfare. As you can see here:
http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/10120057/detail.html#


Sweden’s AIP sub Gotland has humiliated our best, although I'm not sure if it has faced Seawolf or Virginia class subs yet. But in theory it doesn't matter because we don't even have more than a few of these and once they become more standard in our navy the next gen of AIP boats (which are already underdevelopment) will be out

[diver]

Originally Posted by sharp

Our cuts in funding of submarine research and development have severly cripled us in the next gen. sub warfare. As you can see here http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/10120057/detail.html#

Swedens AIP sub Gotland has humiliated our best, although I'm not sure if it has faced Seawolf or Virginia class subs yet. But in theory it doesn't matter because no matter we don't even have more than a few of these and onec they become more standard in our navy the next gen of AIP boats (which are already underdevelopment) will be out.

It's nothing new.
Even non-AIP equipped conventionals have been beating your nukes for years. The Collins class has many victories, so do the japs, and the old RAN O-boats.

[Onkel Neal]

Originally Posted by diver

It's nothing new.
Even non-AIP equipped conventionals have been beating your nukes for years. The Collins class has many victories, so do the japs, and the old RAN O-boats.

Really? Where can one learn more about that? Do you have sources? I'm not disputing what you claim, just would like to read up on it. I can imagine AIP raises some interesting tactical situations, but how fast can an AIP sub go, and for how long? The old diesel subs in WWII were silent, too, but they had to be in position and hope the enemy crossed their path.

[Kapitan]

I can remember talking to a guy from HMS Tireless after he came back from duty he was exercising with the chilean navy and was against one of thier oberon class submarines, the chilean beat the traffie 3,2 the oberon despite being over 30 years old out did the traffie which was a nuke and alot younger.

All diesels are quiet even on the old tangos and whiskeys and kilos but the conventionals cant go for long periods of excess speed id immagine the AIP submarines are similar but they can go for much longer at faster speeds it wouldnt surprise me that the type 212 / 214 submarines could hit 33 knots at full wack.

Also a further note india retrofitted one of thier kilo class submarines with an experimental 7 blade propellor with that and thier superior indian batteries that said kilo hit 27 knots but the cost in battery life went through the roof after half hourish of flank speed the battery was quite litteraly dead.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

Originally Posted by Kapitan

Also a further note india retrofitted one of thier kilo class submarines with an experimental 7 blade propellor with that and thier superior indian batteries that said kilo hit 27 knots but the cost in battery life went through the roof after half hourish of flank speed the battery was quite litteraly dead.

Sounds like one of those 40-knot carrier sea stories to me. No matter how much charge the "superior" battery can hold, it can only increase endurance rather than top speed, which is regulated by the motor horsepower. Even if I assume the 7 blade propeller (and 636s already use 7-blade propellers while older Kilos use the 6-blade) has somehow doubled the effective thrust into the water (unlikely, since improvements in these things are incremental rather than revolutionary and India doesn't exactly have tons of experience in this whole subject of advanced sub propellers), it is unlikely to buy 7 whole knots.

[Kapitan]

Probably not and i agree with you its more than likely a roumer alot of them float around the indian navy in its attempt to scare pakistan, whats more intresting is though alot of the older indian kilo's have five bladed propellors.

Also i do know the indians have superior batteries as the russians have started to buy them for the lada class, they are far better than the russian ones provided.

[SUBMAN1]

Originally Posted by Kapitan

I can remember talking to a guy from HMS Tireless after he came back from duty he was exercising with the chilean navy and was against one of thier oberon class submarines, the chilean beat the traffie 3,2 the oberon despite being over 30 years old out did the traffie which was a nuke and alot younger.

All diesels are quiet even on the old tangos and whiskeys and kilos but the conventionals cant go for long periods of excess speed id immagine the AIP submarines are similar but they can go for much longer at faster speeds it wouldnt surprise me that the type 212 / 214 submarines could hit 33 knots at full wack.

Also a further note india retrofitted one of thier kilo class submarines with an experimental 7 blade propellor with that and thier superior indian batteries that said kilo hit 27 knots but the cost in battery life went through the roof after half hourish of flank speed the battery was quite litteraly dead.

Listened to the Captain of the 212 on a Discovery chan program - they are claiming 20 knots.

[Kapitan]

Well of corse they will claim 20 knots only a fool will tell you the true truth infact if anyone told you the truth about thier submarines i would seriously think they would be a spy.

Discovery channel claims that the new virginia goes down to 240 meters and has a speed of 25 knots, me and you both know that is one heck of a load of bulls**t as we know the 688i goes down to 400m

[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

Really? Where can one learn more about that? Do you have sources? I'm not disputing what you claim, just would like to read up on it. I can imagine AIP raises some interesting tactical situations, but how fast can an AIP sub go, and for how long? The old diesel subs in WWII were silent, too, but they had to be in position and hope the enemy crossed their path.

Try looking around for an paper by Roger Thompson called "Is the US Navy overrated?" I won't say it is a very good paper, really, there are enough flaws even for a relative layman like me, but it does have examples where this happened. It may still be somewhere on the net and I can fork over a copy if you can't find it.

[bookworm_020]

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

Really? Where can one learn more about that? Do you have sources? I'm not disputing what you claim, just would like to read up on it. I can imagine AIP raises some interesting tactical situations, but how fast can an AIP sub go, and for how long? The old diesel subs in WWII were silent, too, but they had to be in position and hope the enemy crossed their path.

There was a series done on TV which followed one of the Collins class as prepared for a 6 month deployment. It's availble on DVD, It called "the Submariners" there is a book also.

Here is the wikipedia link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collins_class_submarine

[Captain_Stabbing]

Reading all this bantering about nuke vs electric. It all lreally depends on what kinda waters you are in too. A nuke must keep curculation water while in latoral waters (remember, the cold wars over, and most battles are seeming to be fought in shallower coastal waters these days), while an electric can effectivly shut everything down and just wait like a giant ass-kicking sea mine, making as much noise "as a lightbulb"
And for all these speedy top speeds..... sure you can go balls to to the wall, but its like hunting from a freighttrain. The whole world can hear you, but you have no idea whats anywhere. The old Alpha Soviet boats were a prime example. As fast as they were useless, and man, were they fast.
So speed is nice and all, but I would be more worried about a puttering little diesel anyday over a nuke.
Thats my 2 bits.

[Kapitan]

Even an old whiskey, romeo, or foxtrot could kill a nuke if it just sat there.

[Kapitan]

Japan is a good naval force most of thier ships are home built and designed its just the kongo class design was borrowd from the americans and streached to suite japanese needs, also the japanese submarines have whats called progressive decomissioning and its the only navy to do it.

[TteFAboB]

So now that you're all done with the technical part, how about some strategy?

AIP subs deny you access to a coastal sea zone, what are your options?

1. Find another way in, maybe use giant flying wings/zeppelins to land your troops (actually I just want the tech developed for civvie use).
2. Do the Pearl Harbor and start the war with the bombing of the subs while they're in port/vulnerable/pin-pointed.
3. Get your own AIP hunter subs in there somehow, that's gonna be a long journey.
4. Build a giant airborne fishing net connected to an EMP generator (3 giant flying wings/zeppelins) and sweep the sea zone frying any subs that come in contact with the net.
5. Call the Ghostbusters.
6. Call in the Thunderbirds.
7. Use decoys: send in a large remote-controlled fleet of cheap WW2 Liberty Ships equipped with massive decoying devices to completely blind the subs, the rest of your force stay sharp to shut down the decoys at any moment and detect the subs that started moving.
8. Send in Kapitain in the Jahre Viking, with a keel that deep chances are he'll ram the subs.

Any other simple solutions? #7 seems pretty reasonable, if you can't hear you can't aim and if you can't aim you can't shoot and if you do shoot you can only hit a worthless decoy.

[Safe-Keeper]

So in other words, the day Sweden declares war, you're screwed. Better build that bomb shelter quickly, then:p.
[/Swede-teasing]

Heck, the Swedish military is impressive. The Visby-class stealth corvette, the JAS-39 Gripen fighter jet that can touch down on ordinary roads, and now this u-boat that even has the mighty USA stomped.