Shooting Liferafts

skirich · 09-02-19, 11:14 PM

Any downside to shooting and sinking a life raft full of survivors?

Fifi · 09-03-19, 01:23 AM

No downsides, but i think they are unsinkable...they probably don’t have damages boxes ...

skirich · 09-03-19, 01:28 AM

I actually got credit for one on my mission log. Zero tonnage.
I wonder what our WWII subs did. I can see not wanting survivors on missions to report back sub activities. But I bet it goes agains regs or Geneva.

Sniper297 · 09-03-19, 07:41 PM

They can be sunk, but it's a waste of time and ammo.

In real life in any war there are going to be atrocities, and propaganda about enemy atrocities that are just made up. "If you surrender, the enemy will kill you with a flamethrower!!!" Get the troops to believe that, they'll be more likely to fight to the death instead of giving up.

There were verified cases of U-boats machine gunning survivors in the water, other verified cases where the sub gave the survivors food, water, a compass, and the course to the nearest land.

One famous/infamous case for American subs was USS Wahoo, some accounts you read claim the Captain (Mush Morton) hated the Japanese so much he machine gunned survivors in a rage. The actual official report says he sunk a troop transport, went in to see if he could get a prisoner or two, and the troops in lifeboats and landing craft opened fire on the Wahoo with machine guns so he had no choice but to return fire.

Humanitarian reasons aside, there are more reasons not to do it than to do it. Atrocities more often than not will stiffen resistance and piss off the enemy, if you're looking to break their spirit and reduce their morale that will usually have the opposite effect. It's also a two way street, you give the enemy all the excuse he needs to be barbaric in return. Risk versus reward is also a big factor, the ship you sunk is expensive and not easy to replace, a few dozen merchant seamen and a couple of rafts and lifeboats are cheap and easy to replace. One of them shoots back and kills a second class gunner's mate with a lucky shot, you just lost that contest because it takes years of training and a lot of money to make a qualified submariner. Just not worth the risk, once the ship goes down beat feet out of the area.

captainadccdacaptain · 09-04-19, 06:20 AM

Figured this would be appropriate

Fifi · 09-04-19, 06:42 AM

Of what i remember for German side, Doenitz had huge trouble with it, at the Nuremberg trial. Because he said during the war at his Kaleuns « an ennemy surviving crew is an other ship crew next time... »
Meaning would be nice to not have survivors.
And this meaning was up to the Kaleuns to understand it...or not.
Hopefully very few of them understood and applied this hidden order.
And as it was a kind of hidden order, Doenitz made it through the trial...for this charge of indictment.

09-02-19, 11:14 PM	#1
skirich Chief Join Date: Aug 2019 Location: Patroling the south pacific Posts: 321 Downloads: 75 Uploads: 0	Shooting Liferafts Any downside to shooting and sinking a life raft full of survivors?

09-03-19, 01:23 AM	#2
Fifi Navy Seal Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: France Posts: 5,867 Downloads: 458 Uploads: 0	No downsides, but i think they are unsinkable...they probably don’t have damages boxes ... __________________ https://www.mediafire.com/file/sq29r...N_V6.3.7z/file

09-04-19, 06:42 AM	#6
Fifi Navy Seal Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: France Posts: 5,867 Downloads: 458 Uploads: 0	Of what i remember for German side, Doenitz had huge trouble with it, at the Nuremberg trial. Because he said during the war at his Kaleuns « an ennemy surviving crew is an other ship crew next time... » Meaning would be nice to not have survivors. And this meaning was up to the Kaleuns to understand it...or not. Hopefully very few of them understood and applied this hidden order. And as it was a kind of hidden order, Doenitz made it through the trial...for this charge of indictment. __________________ https://www.mediafire.com/file/sq29r...N_V6.3.7z/file

09-03-19, 01:28 AM	#3
skirich Chief Join Date: Aug 2019 Location: Patroling the south pacific Posts: 321 Downloads: 75 Uploads: 0	I actually got credit for one on my mission log. Zero tonnage. I wonder what our WWII subs did. I can see not wanting survivors on missions to report back sub activities. But I bet it goes agains regs or Geneva.

09-03-19, 07:41 PM	#4
Sniper297 The Old Man Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Philadelphia Shipyard Brig Posts: 1,386 Downloads: 160 Uploads: 19	They can be sunk, but it's a waste of time and ammo. In real life in any war there are going to be atrocities, and propaganda about enemy atrocities that are just made up. "If you surrender, the enemy will kill you with a flamethrower!!!" Get the troops to believe that, they'll be more likely to fight to the death instead of giving up. There were verified cases of U-boats machine gunning survivors in the water, other verified cases where the sub gave the survivors food, water, a compass, and the course to the nearest land. One famous/infamous case for American subs was USS Wahoo, some accounts you read claim the Captain (Mush Morton) hated the Japanese so much he machine gunned survivors in a rage. The actual official report says he sunk a troop transport, went in to see if he could get a prisoner or two, and the troops in lifeboats and landing craft opened fire on the Wahoo with machine guns so he had no choice but to return fire. Humanitarian reasons aside, there are more reasons not to do it than to do it. Atrocities more often than not will stiffen resistance and piss off the enemy, if you're looking to break their spirit and reduce their morale that will usually have the opposite effect. It's also a two way street, you give the enemy all the excuse he needs to be barbaric in return. Risk versus reward is also a big factor, the ship you sunk is expensive and not easy to replace, a few dozen merchant seamen and a couple of rafts and lifeboats are cheap and easy to replace. One of them shoots back and kills a second class gunner's mate with a lucky shot, you just lost that contest because it takes years of training and a lot of money to make a qualified submariner. Just not worth the risk, once the ship goes down beat feet out of the area.

09-04-19, 06:20 AM	#5
captainadccdacaptain Gunner Join Date: Oct 2015 Location: Deep southern part of US Posts: 98 Downloads: 49 Uploads: 0	Figured this would be appropriate