LOL... is this realistic??

Whistler · 07-30-06, 10:30 AM

Hey I'm new to DW and not a big expert on naval technology... Anyway I was fooling around with the Kilo in a mission where your objective is to sneak into a US carrier group and sink a Nimitz class.

I got inside the group, ID'd the carrier, and let loose with 3 torpedos, then hitailed it out of there. 2 of the torps hit the carrier and one went off to hit a escort. The carrier just sat there burning with like 75% damage IIRC.

Anyway as I was getting away I turned on show truth just to observe how the AI reacts to my attack. There were helos all over the place dropping buoys etc, and one of them dropped a torpedo into the area where I had launched my attack from.

Anyway, the torpedo went in circles for a bit looking for me, then targetted and SANK the Nimitz! Is that something that would happen in real life or just an AI goof?

goldorak · 07-30-06, 11:26 AM

To be honest in real life I seriously doubt that the helicopters would drop torpedos in the middle of the formation.
It doesn't make sense (cause they could sink there own ships).
First they would prosecute a contact and only when they have a fix they would fire torpedos makeing sure they don't acquire friendly ships.
So in the end, yeah the ai is too much zelous. :rotfl::rotfl:

Amizaur · 07-30-06, 12:49 PM

In LwAmi mod the aircraft carriers are one of few targets an ASW torpedo is able to hit... the safe feature of ASW torpedos are enaugh to prevent hitting most surface targets, but carriers are too big.
BTW, what damage could an Mk46 or Mk50 do to an aircrat carrier ? 1% ? 0.1% ? :-) maybe we should review warhead damage points, of dedicated ASW torps, not sure what LW set them to currently...
After introducing new definition of ceiling setting by Luftwolf and maybe pure ASW mode for AI air dropped torps, this will not happen again. Torpedos dropped against a sub target would completly ignore the Nimitz as an surface target.

But hmm the warhead damage values maybe should be reviewed... I the warheads should be given realistic values based on warhead size, and to ensure single hitn can sink a sub, the sub damage values should be reduced instead in comparison to surface ships.

goldorak · 07-30-06, 01:08 PM

Actually it depends where the torpedo hits.
As to the mission Amizaur, one torpedo didn't sink the Nimitz.
The carrier had already sustained 2 direct torpedo hits (from a kilo) and then was hit by a third helicopter dropped torpedo.
We can agree that 3 torpedos if they hit a weak spot (and any ship has weak spots) are sufficient to sink a ship.

Whistler · 07-30-06, 02:33 PM

Actually it might have even taken 3 hits from me... I wasn't paying attention really, I just let loose with everything I had in my tubes, some hit the Nimitz and some hit the escorts :rotfl: .

XabbaRus · 07-30-06, 02:47 PM

I haven't read too much into this. I remember in 688i when hunting teh Kuznetsov the Helix dropped and ASW torp on a false contact and it the KUz.

I wonder if light weight air dropped ASW torps do have some logic filter built in that prevents them going after target at depths above 8 metres considering the average draft of a warship and that any sub contact being prosecuted will do the smart thing and go deep. I guess it is in the realms of possibility. Then again I guess older toprs aren't so smart and maybe would go for surface targets.

Another question is what torps is this automatci and what torps does this need to be set by the operator?

Amizaur · 07-31-06, 08:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XabbaRus

I wonder if light weight air dropped ASW torps do have some logic filter built in that prevents them going after target at depths above 8 metres considering the average draft of a warship and that any sub contact being prosecuted will do the smart thing and go deep.

Such logic is implemented in LwAmi for AI launched ASW torps. AI doesn't set the ceiling for their torpedos at all, so I had to correct that. But it doesn't work against aircraft carriers... Works for most of other surface ships. To work for carriers too, the celing setting for AI subs would have to be increased so much that it would possibly not kill a sub on PD...
New definition of ceiling by Luftwolf should fix that for carriers too.

jason taylor · 08-01-06, 12:10 AM

I've done that mission several times and it has never done that. I did get bonked once from a p3 while I was chaseing a fleeing Nimitz quite closely.

actually what struck me was the free use they make with their active. You can almost track the American fleet with nothing but active intercept.

hyperion2206 · 08-01-06, 10:53 AM

I am also surprised how often the surface ships use their active sonar, I always thought that you shouldn't do it except that you are pretty sure a sub is extremly close to your position.:hmm:

SeaQueen · 07-31-06, 04:55 PM

I've had similar problems with VLAs and ships sinking themselves with them. A couple former ship's captains have told me that they never liked shooting VLA or SVTT, because it always made them nervous to have torpedoes circling around out there.

I don't know specifics, but my suspicion is that there are more sophisticated safety measures than what is modeled in Dangerous Waters. I'm not sure the interface will allow one to implement them, though.

Whistler · 07-31-06, 07:24 PM

I saw another funny one today... I was doing that single mission where you are a FFG-7 defending a convoy in the North Atlantic from Soviet attackers. I got wiped out pretty early by a Tu-22 firing ASMs, so I turned on truth to watch the end of the battle.

2 Kilos were set on attacking the convoy, one to the east and one to the north. The Kilo to the east began firing off torpedos to sink the merchant ships. It sank most the convoy while the northern Kilo continued to do its own thing. The nothern Kilo started shooting off countermeasures as if it believed that the torpedos aimed at the convoy were meant to hit him. THEN he fired a rocket torpedo (SS-N-15 Starfish I think?) AT the eastern Kilo, heavily damaging it (77%).

He didn't aim the SSM at the convoy, not even close, it went right for his buddy in the other Kilo.

Hmmmmmm.... :rotfl:

07-30-06, 10:30 AM	#1
Whistler Watch Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 24 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	LOL... is this realistic?? Hey I'm new to DW and not a big expert on naval technology... Anyway I was fooling around with the Kilo in a mission where your objective is to sneak into a US carrier group and sink a Nimitz class. I got inside the group, ID'd the carrier, and let loose with 3 torpedos, then hitailed it out of there. 2 of the torps hit the carrier and one went off to hit a escort. The carrier just sat there burning with like 75% damage IIRC. Anyway as I was getting away I turned on show truth just to observe how the AI reacts to my attack. There were helos all over the place dropping buoys etc, and one of them dropped a torpedo into the area where I had launched my attack from. Anyway, the torpedo went in circles for a bit looking for me, then targetted and SANK the Nimitz! Is that something that would happen in real life or just an AI goof?

07-30-06, 02:47 PM	#6
XabbaRus Navy Seal Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 5,330 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	I haven't read too much into this. I remember in 688i when hunting teh Kuznetsov the Helix dropped and ASW torp on a false contact and it the KUz. I wonder if light weight air dropped ASW torps do have some logic filter built in that prevents them going after target at depths above 8 metres considering the average draft of a warship and that any sub contact being prosecuted will do the smart thing and go deep. I guess it is in the realms of possibility. Then again I guess older toprs aren't so smart and maybe would go for surface targets. Another question is what torps is this automatci and what torps does this need to be set by the operator? __________________

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07-30-06, 11:26 AM	#2
goldorak Admiral Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 2,320 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	To be honest in real life I seriously doubt that the helicopters would drop torpedos in the middle of the formation. It doesn't make sense (cause they could sink there own ships). First they would prosecute a contact and only when they have a fix they would fire torpedos makeing sure they don't acquire friendly ships. So in the end, yeah the ai is too much zelous. :rotfl::rotfl:

07-30-06, 12:49 PM	#3
Amizaur Sonar Guy Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Poland Posts: 398 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	In LwAmi mod the aircraft carriers are one of few targets an ASW torpedo is able to hit... the safe feature of ASW torpedos are enaugh to prevent hitting most surface targets, but carriers are too big. BTW, what damage could an Mk46 or Mk50 do to an aircrat carrier ? 1% ? 0.1% ? :-) maybe we should review warhead damage points, of dedicated ASW torps, not sure what LW set them to currently... After introducing new definition of ceiling setting by Luftwolf and maybe pure ASW mode for AI air dropped torps, this will not happen again. Torpedos dropped against a sub target would completly ignore the Nimitz as an surface target. But hmm the warhead damage values maybe should be reviewed... I the warheads should be given realistic values based on warhead size, and to ensure single hitn can sink a sub, the sub damage values should be reduced instead in comparison to surface ships.

07-30-06, 01:08 PM	#4
goldorak Admiral Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 2,320 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Actually it depends where the torpedo hits. As to the mission Amizaur, one torpedo didn't sink the Nimitz. The carrier had already sustained 2 direct torpedo hits (from a kilo) and then was hit by a third helicopter dropped torpedo. We can agree that 3 torpedos if they hit a weak spot (and any ship has weak spots) are sufficient to sink a ship.

07-30-06, 02:33 PM	#5
Whistler Watch Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 24 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Actually it might have even taken 3 hits from me... I wasn't paying attention really, I just let loose with everything I had in my tubes, some hit the Nimitz and some hit the escorts :rotfl: .

08-01-06, 12:10 AM	#8
jason taylor Loader Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 84 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	I've done that mission several times and it has never done that. I did get bonked once from a p3 while I was chaseing a fleeing Nimitz quite closely. actually what struck me was the free use they make with their active. You can almost track the American fleet with nothing but active intercept.

08-01-06, 10:53 AM	#9
hyperion2206 Ace of the Deep Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Cologne, Germany Posts: 1,227 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 0	I am also surprised how often the surface ships use their active sonar, I always thought that you shouldn't do it except that you are pretty sure a sub is extremly close to your position.:hmm:

07-31-06, 04:55 PM	#10
SeaQueen Naval Royalty Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Washington, DC Posts: 1,185 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	I've had similar problems with VLAs and ships sinking themselves with them. A couple former ship's captains have told me that they never liked shooting VLA or SVTT, because it always made them nervous to have torpedoes circling around out there. I don't know specifics, but my suspicion is that there are more sophisticated safety measures than what is modeled in Dangerous Waters. I'm not sure the interface will allow one to implement them, though.

07-31-06, 07:24 PM	#11
Whistler Watch Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 24 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	I saw another funny one today... I was doing that single mission where you are a FFG-7 defending a convoy in the North Atlantic from Soviet attackers. I got wiped out pretty early by a Tu-22 firing ASMs, so I turned on truth to watch the end of the battle. 2 Kilos were set on attacking the convoy, one to the east and one to the north. The Kilo to the east began firing off torpedos to sink the merchant ships. It sank most the convoy while the northern Kilo continued to do its own thing. The nothern Kilo started shooting off countermeasures as if it believed that the torpedos aimed at the convoy were meant to hit him. THEN he fired a rocket torpedo (SS-N-15 Starfish I think?) AT the eastern Kilo, heavily damaging it (77%). He didn't aim the SSM at the convoy, not even close, it went right for his buddy in the other Kilo. Hmmmmmm.... :rotfl: