SH5 Wolfpacks, There in!

[commandosolo2009]

Now If I see ANY German U boat aside mine, I open fire.. YES!!!! the AI () gets it!! the Britische Kriegschiffe und Handelschiffe are mine, and Hitler and Doenitz can suck eachothers ****...

I wont illude myself with any more thoughts that I should give Ubi a second chance or that the AI actually works on those subs...

TO Ubi:

[Hartmann]

Originally Posted by Magnum

In that link all u can see is what I was talking about, the stupid AI u-boot running away and the escort having fun with him. U will never see one AI sub actually attacking an enemy target, they will always dodge it. As I said, I'm doing the Black Pit campaign and there is a LOT of u-boot activity, but none will engage the enemy.. they exist only to give the player the feeling that he is not alone.

Regarding the mods, I agree.. there is a lot of work on the UI, but almost none on the game and AI behaviour. ddrgn had worked on an interesting mod "U-boat Historical Specifications" and "Feared Hunters" that could evolve into a bigger something, similar to TDW work but dealing with the AI and the game mechanics ... maybe he don't have time or enough interest to continue his work...

UI mods are not bery difficult and are great mods , IA and others are more difficult and the script estructere is not know very well yet.

Soon or later the "easy " mods will reach the limit and modders start to focus on other broken poins of the game.

I remember sh3 and some mods take a lot of time, for example moon reflections , broken in stock game

[JScones]

I fail to see how this is a revelation? We've known since well before release that there'd be AI operated U-boats. About as "Wolfpack-y" as scripted AI boats in SH3.

Originally Posted by The General

Yeah, apart from the fact that the graphics are ten times better

Yep, when you can't compete with substance, just fall back to the old "Yeah, but it's much purdier" line.

[The General]

Originally Posted by JScones

Yep, when you can't compete with substance, just fall back to the old "Yeah, but it's much purdier" line.

Hey, I'd love for SH5 to have more 'substance' but The Devs didn't get the chance to finish it. Anybody who's played SH5 and had a look through the files will tell you how ambitious a project it was. Unmodded SH3 is pretty simplistic by comparison, and I don't just mean graphically either.

[Lemke]

Originally Posted by Magnum

Lies. You know, this game works because our fat imagination, because sometime we want so much to work as we dream that we actually belive it does. But is just a mirrage.

I'm doing Black Pit now and there is a lot of wolfpack activity there, including a mission with "sink million ships using wolpack tactics". So instead of hunting convoys, I hunted our u-boats trying to find and join a wolfpack. Finally I managed to find a big one, 9 u-boot heading west in close formation. So I joined them hoping for a great hunt. My *** !

Few hours after I joined them, we run right into a huge convoy with heavy escort and all that goodies. Gues what this lame wolfpack did? They broke up. Those retards in front crash dived and sailed away at 50m, 2 in next row got 1 shoted by the escorts and the last row in back managed to sail away on high speed. I left all alone against mad escorts and zig-zag'in ships.

So that story on official forum is a result of an action hungry imagination. AI subs don't engage enemy ships, they dodge them.. is not the first time I see this. Same as the u-boot did that I posted in screenshot thread, where after I joined another AI u-boot and we found a convoy.. he dived and on max speed avoided any contact with the enemy.. after the convoy passed he surfaced again but bad luck.. the convoy had a battleship that one shoted him.

So yeah, sadly there is no working wolfpack in the game, it's just an ilusion

Well, I have made an interesting experience here I'd like to share with you guys:

When I unlocked THE BLACK PIT campaign, the video conference (or was it the description of the campaign ?) referred to the possibility to use wolfpacks for the first time… Mmm… this looked pretty exciting, but would the wolfpacks work ? In order to check, I chose the mission « Triumph of the wolpack » which apparently requires to cooperate with a wolfpack.

I left port and sailed through the Biscay Bay. While approximately in the middle of the bay, a wolfpack showed on the nav map, just a few hundreds of km North of my position, apparently sailing parallel to my course. So far, nothing special.

But this wolfpack was different : it kept sending its position every few hours, which made the wolfpack « blimp » on the nav map when using time compression. Odd… Other wolfpacks don’t do that (up to my experience) : they show up once or twice and that’s it, and I have to chase them to find them.

The wolfpack was heading NE, but when it got out of Biscay Bay and was a few hundred km E of Ireland, it changed course and headed straight to my allocated patrol area, due East… I decided to position myself in front of the wolfpack and to proceed to the patrol area, at the same course and speed (14 knots).

A few convoys and independent ships were reported by my radioman but nothing close by or worth a long chase. Then « it » happened…

24 September 1942
14 :42
Convoy reported on nav map, 750km East. Intercept course plotted : it’s running on the same line as the wolfpack and the two will clash together ! I keep speed at 14 knots running parallel to the wolfpack at approx 70km. Wolfpack has about 6 subs according to hydrophone, speed still 14 knots.

25 September 1942
6 :07
Running parallel to wolfpack distance 35km on intercept course with convoy

13 :19
Still running parallel to wolfpack distance 13km on intercept course with convoy. Convoy suddenly detected on nav map (by hydrophone) distance 13km speed 10knots. Both my sub and the wolfpack are in front of convoy, perfect attack position, outside the « black pit sector » but inside allocated patrol area (200km of center of patrol area). Looking good for some mission kills !

13 :21
Clouds partial, precipitations none, fog medium, visibility medium. « Total revealing » and « safe communications » enabled.

13 :28
First ship of the convoy in sight. Nav map shows 20+ ships and only 2 escorts. While I peek around a destroyer suddenly comes out of the fog, distance 2000m speed 10 knots. It hasn’t spotted me (yet). I submerge deck at 7m and reduce speed.

13 :29
More ships of the convoy come in sight. Merchantman sighted 4000m ahead. Convoy and Patrol Reports sent. Going to P-depth and silent running. As I dive, the escort opens fire on me and starts rushing to my position, and the convoy starts the usual zigzagging. Decoys deployed.

13 :32
Most of the wolfpack is still on parallel course with convoy, distance 6500m now, but there are 2 subs which will definitively clash with the convoy unless they alter course. But so far, the wolfpack has not changed formation or speed (they must be deciphering my message ?)

13 :33
Depth 90m and destroyer heading for decoys. Stabilizing at 105m and hearing depth charges exploding at approx 20m.

13 :41
Numerous depth charges explosions, too far to do any harm. Using the external cam, I spot 1 sub on surface approx 3000m from convoy, but it does not take any action whatsoever.

13 :43
Merchantman opens fire on this sub, which deep dives instantly and turns away from the convoy at high speed (as expected having read this thread before the mission). The coward is fleeing ! What a lousy b*st*rd !

13 :44
AI Sub is at 70m (must have done a crash dive), still going high speed away from the convoy. Obviously he doesn’t rig for silent running when under attack… Looking at the rest of the wolfpack, I notice 3 subs have dived and 2 more are still surfaced. These two have changed course to intercept the convoy ! A reaction at least ! The other submerged ones are still on a parallel course.

13 :45
Wolfpack is now altering course : 3 submerged subs (2 turning away from convoy, 1 moving in) and 2 surfaced subs (1 on intercept course, other 1 turning). Can’t find the 6th sub.

13 :46
The submerged subs have all returned at p-depth… and are now all heading to the convoy ! Merchantmen column is about 1000m away from me. I activate « Riposte » and « Propaganda » on my sub and return to p-depth

13 :51
I’m getting tired of all this idleness so I decide to grab some action. I notice I’m now almost in the center of the convoy, ships are all around me. Fire no.1 on medium tanker, no.2 & 3 on liberty ship, dead ahead. 2 ships sunk.

13 :52
Fire no.5 on large steamer (war supplies). Hit and left burning, residual speed 5knots. All wolfpack subs have now submerged, 3 are heading to the convoy, 2 turning away, no sign of 6th sub, their underwater speed is 7knots (max speed)

13 :57
2 escorts head to the sub which had been previously fired upon by the merchantman. Sub speeds away at 70m speed 7knots. Still two wolfpack subs closing in submerged. Lost trace of the other ones. Fire no.4 on large steamer, left burning and dead in the water. Start chasing the other damaged ship at max speed.

13 :58
6th sub detected, rear of convoy, submerged and approaching fast. Is this the lead sub ?

13 :59
The damaged ship I was chasing seemed to have stopped. Investigations show its screws have been blown off. It has transformed into a sitting duck… I decide to leave him alone (for now) to see if another sub from the pack is going to try to finish him off. Should be an easy target for my « partners ». I concentrate again on the other ships.

14 :01
Fire no.5 on motionless steamer next to one of the damaged ships (these captains don’t seem to know you’re not supposed to stop your ship during a convoy battle !). Ship left burning dead in the water (that’s the 3rd one damaged). Wolfpack subs appear intermittently on nav map. Some have surfaced while the others continue submerged. Speed of surfaced subs is now 12knots (instead of 14). Wolfpack situation is chaotic, half of the subs seem to turn around but other ones still push forward on an interception course. Closest sub to the convoy is about 4700m (on surface North of convoy). I can see 2 other subs on surface, operating close to each other, 5000m NE of convoy, and not far away of the sub just mentioned. A 4th sub is also spotted closing in on surface.

14 :05
Destroyer sighted heading my direction, distance 4000m speed 10knots. It’s chasing me after seeing the explosions ! Dive at 80m, launch decoys and rig for silent running.

14 :08
I can’t believe it ! As I’m inspecting the surfaced sub which is closest to the convoy (approx 1500m), and just as it gets under fire from one of the merchantmen, I suddenly spot a spread of four steam torpedoes coming out of the tubes and heading directly for the convoy !!!! The sub then dives quickly, shells falling all around, and turns sharply. I dive to 50m to avoid torps. BUT I SAW IT : THE WOLFPACK SUBS DO ACTUALLY FIRE THEIR TORPEDOES (at least one of them did) !!!!

14 :12
No torpedo impact, they must have all missed. The pair of subs mentioned at 14 :01 is now approx 1300m from the convoy. They attract heavy fire from the merchantmen, dive and turn around. No torpedoes seen. First attacking sub is still at p-depth and now that the pair of subs has dived, it attracts all the gunfire from the convoy. Even AA guns are brought into action. I can hear a lot of hull explosions around the sub, which doesn’t even lower its attack scope. Sub is likely to be sunk if it stays at p-depth with its scope clearly rising outside the water… I go back to p-depth since the escorts have turned their attention to wolfpack subs closing in E of the convoy.

14 :23
No more sign of the first attack sub (probably sunk due to massive gunfire). The pair of subs NE of convoy surfaces and heads back to the convoy, distance 1300m. Other wolfpack subs E of convoy surface and get attacked by escorts, which thus neglect the pair of subs located NE of convoy

14 :25
One escort is burning but appears to be only slightly damaged. Did it get hit by its own depth charges ?

14 :30
2 more subs attacking from rear on surface, but no sign of the pair of subs NE of convoy… They have disappeared from the nav map and I assume they are lost. Fire no.4 on steamer and hit the rudder (now there are 4 burning ships dead in the water)

14 :36
Destroyer cutting through the convoy and heading straight to me at high speed. Launching decoys, diving to 150m, silent running and heading parallel to convoy.

14 :38
Back to contemplate the 2 subs attacking from the rear of the convoy, I suddenly see 4 faint white lines in the water just in front of the 1st sub : IT’S LAUNCHING A TORPEDO SPREAD !!!! TORPS ONCE AGAIN !!! Steam torps. Much to my bewilderment, the 4 torps take a 180 degrees turn and dart away from the convoy ! Is this a training wolfpack ??? What’s wrong with these rookie captains ??? The attacking sub dives deep.

14 :39
Going back to p-depth. While operating the attack scope, I realize I had been looking at about 180 degrees when the 2nd torpedo attack took place. Is there a connection ?

14 :40
The second sub stays on surface, for some unknown reason, and gets attacked by a destroyer. The destroyer closes in very fast but the sub still cruises leisurely on the surface. When the destroyer is really close it tries to back throttle at full speed but it’s too late, the sub gets rammed and sinks like a n00b. Too bad for the crew… (but it’s a ghost crew anyways !)

14 :48
The attacking sub has returned to p-depth and heads for the convoy again. I have only 4 torpedoes left and since there are still 4 damaged ships to sink, I decide to cease the attack and dive at 60m, letting what’s left of the convoy overpass me.

14 :51
Sub tries to surface but gets fired upon by destroyer. Hull explosions are heard on the sub.

14 :52
Sub returned at p-depth but is now motionless. Guess it’s gotten too many hits and is about to sink.

14 :54
Strange enough, the sub suddenly starts its engines at full speed and turns around while diving deep. Maybe it had been running silent running for a few minutes (first time I saw that !). It’s the only remaining sub of the wolfpack still visible on the nav map : the others have probably been sunk or are diving deep. Going to 150m & silent running since the escorts seem to head for my position again. Launching decoys at 100m. Altering course to let them chew the decoys peacefully.

16 :26
Lost hydrophone contact with last sub. I am about to surface to reload my external torpedoes. Convoy and escorts are gone, only the burning ships remain.

16 :32
Surfaced and reloading torpedoes

16 :44
Fired no.1 & 2 & 3 for the « coup de grace » on 3 burning ships. They all sink quickly.

17 :17
Found remaining damaged ship and fired no.5 to send her to the bottom

17 :19
Sent patrol report and commenced return run to base. No more torpedoes left. 7 ships sunk totaling 45'542 tons – but this level is definitely too easy…

It appears that this particular encounter was scripted, but it definitively shows that the subs can fire torpedoes during an attack - though they only fire spreads of 4 and donno how to aim properly...

I'm providing some infos if anyone wants to try it by himself:

Game version :
Silent Hunter 5 with latest patch

Mods installed :
- RemoveLogoIntroTheDarkWraith
- Grossdeutscher Rundfunk
- Lynchz Gramaphone
- Accurate German Flags
- AilGlassDropsRemoval 1.0
- AilImpurity 1.2 light
- MightyFine Crew Mod 1.2.1 Alt w beards
- MCCD_1.03_MFCM_1.2.1_compatible
- DBSM_Speech_1_0_4
- No 1-2-3 Torpedo Alignment
- sobers base wave mechanics for SH5 v3
- sobers floor rusty
- Free Cam Tweak 1.1 – Regular
- NewUIs_TDC_3_5_0_ByTheDarkWraith
- NewUIs_TDC_3_5_0_WWIIInterface_by_naights
- Advanced Shift Keys 2.1
- No Damn Bubbles, No Damn Halo Mod
- More Powerful Torpedoes v1.0
- Reduced Mission Tonnage v02
- Damage assessment
- 1standardmorale

Campaign :
BLACK PIT (just unlocked)

Mission :
Triumph of the wolpack : Sink 75,000 tons of Allied supplies from HX/HXF convoys using wolfpacks (that was the very 1st mission I picked in this campaign)

Date :
24-25 September 1942

Difficulty :
Medium (meaning : very easy)

Particular aspects :
- Game save was never loaded since crossing the Biscay Bay until the end of the attack ;
- stayed at attack scope station / nav map / external cam during almost the entire attack, scope was extended most of the time ;
- submerged immediately after spotting the first escort and only resurfaced when the battle was over.

Hope this helps!

[Jan Kyster]

Wow! What an intense read! Very cool!

Originally Posted by Lemke

14 :39 Going back to p-depth. While operating the attack scope, I realize I had been looking at about 180 degrees when the 2nd torpedo attack took place. Is there a connection ?

Can you direct their firing? As in your aim is theirs? Have you tried that?

[janh]

Hmmh, I am confused. Was that while playing the campaign, or was that a separate single mission? Would be interesting how much of that was scripted, and how much AI could do itself.

This could give a hint whether AI for subs/wolfpacks will need developer involvement (patch, addon) to get into a proper state, or whether it is not that far of and can be modded through the AI functions. It would be awesome if this feature would be working as it should. This is really the only thing I am missing with SHIII.

[Zedi]

Sorry, but I don't buy this. Maybe TDW now he is pretty deep into the AI scripts can confirm this... the AI sub can NOT fire, no matter if is torpedo or gun, they are not instructed to do so. I'm not sure where I was reading this to give a proper quote, but the script for the AI sub are set to evasive maneuvers, not a line about fighting back.

To go more further, I also made a custom mission where I put a wolpack in front of 2 retard merchants. At first contact, all subs submerged and sailed away on max speed.

So again.. I don't buy these stories.

[Lemke]

Originally Posted by janh

Hmmh, I am confused. Was that while playing the campaign, or was that a separate single mission? Would be interesting how much of that was scripted, and how much AI could do itself.

This could give a hint whether AI for subs/wolfpacks will need developer involvement (patch, addon) to get into a proper state, or whether it is not that far of and can be modded through the AI functions. It would be awesome if this feature would be working as it should. This is really the only thing I am missing with SHIII.

It was while playing the campaign, the part called "The Black Pit". You have to talk to the officer in port and pick up a mission on the nav map before sailing out of the base. The mission I picked is called "Triumph of the wolpack" (Sink 75,000 tons of Allied supplies from HX/HXF convoys using wolfpacks). Remember, I'm using the "Reduced Mission Tonnage" mod, so the decription of the mission might differ from the stock version...

Originally Posted by Jan Kyster

Wow! What an intense read! Very cool!
Can you direct their firing? As in your aim is theirs? Have you tried that?

Thx for the comments!

I didn't pretend that the torpedoes were aimed at the direction I was looking at. I was just questioning if there was a relation between these two facts... It might well just be a coincidence.

Originally Posted by Magnum

Sorry, but I don't buy this. Maybe TDW now he is pretty deep into the AI scripts can confirm this... the AI sub can NOT fire, no matter if is torpedo or gun, they are not instructed to do so. I'm not sure where I was reading this to give a proper quote, but the script for the AI sub are set to evasive maneuvers, not a line about fighting back.

To go more further, I also made a custom mission where I put a wolpack in front of 2 retard merchants. At first contact, all subs submerged and sailed away on max speed.

So again.. I don't buy these stories.

I saw what I saw, period. If you don't believe it, that's your choice. I'm NOT related to UBI nor to any developer, and have no interest in cheating or telling lies. I can understand it is hard to believe though, given the impressive number of bugs in this game!

I have saved the game just before making contact with the convoy, so I'll try to launch a second attack this weekend. I'm using a macbookpro laptop with windows xp installed, and the keyboard doesn't have the usual "print screen" key. So I had to figure out how to take screenshots on my apple computer running window$... Problem solved now (MWSnap installed to change the shortcut key), which means I'll try to post some pictures next time (if I can manage to spot the AI torpedoes again!). I have already tried to reload my saved game, and both the wolfpack and the convoy are where they are supposed to be. The saved game is, thanks to god, working.

[Nisgeis]

Originally Posted by Magnum

the AI sub can NOT fire, no matter if is torpedo or gun, they are not instructed to do so.

The AI subs have fired torpedoes at me in the stock game, so they can fire. There was also a thread about whether they fired or not and it was answered that they could and multiple people said they had seen them fire. Not a very nice welcome to a new member.

Welcome aboard Lemke!

[Arclight]

They are instructed to fire, but the AI routines are a bit off. Would take some work to get them to attack properly, let alone hit anything.

Originally Posted by Magnum

At first contact, all subs submerged and sailed away on max speed.

That seems to be the main problem; if contacts are within a certain distance, they'll head away at full speed. They'll re-engage once they are far enough away though.

[Zedi]

Just to end this debate, here it is:
Wolpack mission

Is JSGME ready. Watch and cry. Hope the devs can see this and do some sepuku. Or at least quit their job.

[Krauter]

Originally Posted by Magnum

Just to end this debate, here it is:
Wolpack mission

Is JSGME ready. Watch and cry. Hope the devs can see this and do some sepuku. Or at least quit their job.

If you don't have anything constructive, nice or if you can't stop being just plain nasty please leave.

Seriously.

Every topic that has to do with AI submarines or wolfpacks you seem to come in, bash the topic and anyone who supports it.
Now I am not one to rant about people but seriously. Enough.

Also, as Nisgeis noted; not a very nice way to welcome a new member (by basically calling him a liar, etc.) Subsim is known as a warm and welcoming community. If you're part of the community please show some common courtesy. Debate the topic but don't ridicule it..

"Watch and cry. Hope the devs can see this and do some sepuku. Or at least quit their job."

Does not constitute anything courteous or nice.

Welcome aboard Lemke!

Good Day sir,

Krauter

[John Channing]

Originally Posted by Magnum

Just to end this debate, here it is:
Wolpack mission

Is JSGME ready. Watch and cry. Hope the devs can see this and do some sepuku. Or at least quit their job.

While this is not my forum to moderate, as one of the longest standing members here I have to say that the kind of attituide you are showing here is completely unacceptable at Subsim.com. It's not a question of violating the rules (which you have) but rather one of rudeness and immaturity.

This is Neal's forums and Neal's house and, as a guest here, if you cannot conduct yourself in an adult fashion then I would like to encourage you to take your frustrations elsewhere. We have been innundated with this kind of childish nonsense since early this year and, if I had my way, a great number of people like you would be unable to post here at all. Fortunately for you Neal is much more forgiving that the rest of us so he allows this kind of petulant foolishlishnes to go on.

Perhaps instead of insulting new people to the forum or or suggesting people who you have never even met kill themselves you should spend some time counting your blessings he is as tolerant as he is.

JCC

[TheDarkWraith]

Originally Posted by Magnum

Just to end this debate, here it is:
Wolpack mission

Is JSGME ready. Watch and cry. Hope the devs can see this and do some sepuku. Or at least quit their job.

Nice! Was looking for something like this so I can try and fix the sub AI. And the sub AI can fire (torpedoes and guns) and they can fire multiple times. If they are near a contact when they detect it they will head out to a 'safe' zone before turning around and coming back for an attack. They don't have much for aiming though - they depend on being in front of the target and at right angles for their 'firing solution'. That's what they are attemping to get to when they head out and come back in.