[REL] Trigger Maru 1.7.6 (Updated 24Jan08)

[Kapteeni Rantala]

Solely by gun fire?

Yes.

There may be a handful of examples

Quite a bit more, although I understand what you mean. Obviously deck gun sinkings were not a large part of any nation's overall succes with their submarines.

My whole point is that it is not typical of submarine warfare anywhere in WWII to attack and sink merchant shipping in this fashion. It runs counter to the whole point of submarine warfare

Of course. I have only been saying that it is very possible, and (I think that this is probably a bug).

Also, I don't want to raise personal grudges over this issue.

[tater]

My point was that if the deckguns are very effective weapons in SH4 they will be used ahistorically. Since they were NOT used in this fashion in RL, making them more effective is a pointless excercise in terms of simulation.

If you want to simulate US sub surface actions, attack sampans. If you want a fantasy game with US subs, go ahaead and use the deck gun. <shrug>

As for the KM, I don't care about KM vets in the least, frankly, if I could rewrite history, not a single u-boat would have survived. I have a german surname, myself, so what. Fighting for ww2 Germany was wrong, period. Every minute the KM lengthened the war cost countless lives on all sides (I suppose we could divide however many tens of millions of dead by the number of minutes in the war to nail down a number). There is no rational way to look at their contribution other than it furthered murder on a frightening scale (in addition to the murder of the merchant sailors directly killed).

I would not insult a modern day player of a ww2 u-boat game for playing the game, they are not the people in the RL period. I have no problems in the least insulting those that aided Nazi Germany by action, or inaction, they deserve it.

tater

[mrbeast]

Kapteeni no one wants to raise any kind of grudge over this, certainly not me.

In fact I've, enjoyed this thread; has been very interesting. Maybe there was a bug concerning that ship, but as Tater says it doesn't mean that TM is unrealistic. I have never said that sinking a ship with deck gun fire was not possible, just that as a percentage of ships sunk it was small and not typical because it was problematic for many reasons as I have outlined in my posts. I'm sure if you asked any retired WWII sub commander what the best way to sink a ship with gun fire was he would echo my comments about location of hits etc, I bet Hardegen was pretty surprised he managed to get way with what he did in U123!

[Kapteeni Rantala]

My point was that if the deckguns are very effective weapons in SH4

Haven't said that they already aren't effective enough for sure, could be just a bug.

Since they were NOT used in this fashion in RL...pointless terms of simulation. If you want a fantasy game with US subs, go ahaead and use the deck gun. <shrug>

As United States submarines were not under orders not to engage enemy merchant ships larger than 1,000 tons with deck gun I have to disagree. And technically all of our campaings in the game are ahistorical or fantasy if you will if you sink something that was not historically sunk.

There is no rational way to look at their contribution other than it furthered murder on a frightening scale (in addition to the murder of the merchant sailors directly killed).

Very interesting words especially when you consider the fact that the United States Navy practiced unrestricted submarine warfare on Pacific and thus was as much a "murderer" as Kriegsmarine is by your words. Your "murder" statement is not valid according to Nuremberg trials where Admiral Nimitz testified on behalf of Grand Admirals Raeder and Dönitz that if they were to be sentenced of your "murder" then him too should be.

I have no problems in the least insulting those that aided Nazi Germany by action, or inaction, they deserve it.

That is a very black and white statement. Go tell that to avarage American veteran and he will tell you something about war - their enemies in general were no different from their them, they were people fighting for their country, and on a battlefield policies aren't the thing in soldier's mind.

If you really want to belive so then go ahead, I can't stop you, but your logic has already been proven false.

[tater]

They lengthened a war for the side responsible for the entirety of casualties in europe. Every death due to ww2 in europe---every single one---was the fault of Germany. No German invasion of Poland (I guess we can count the CCCP in, they are little credited with their cobeligerant status in Poland), no WW2. It's arguable that had Germany not had success early on, the Japanese wouldn't have started the war in the PTO in the first place.

My point was not that they were mass murderers for unrestricted sub warfare, but that they lengthened the war, and every day more died. If the u-boats added 10% to the length of the war, they are responsible for 10% of the total deaths on all sides. The guys fighting to end the war are only responsible for lives they actually took, and only then noncombatants. more than 50% of the japanese merchant marine was officially military (owned outright by the IJA and IJN).

The japanese didn't sign any treaties regarding rules for warfare anyway, all bets were off. I don't buy the "just doing their job" nonsense. At a certain point you have the responsibility to act. The notion that people didn't know what was going on in Germany is plainly wrong, they did, and they chose to look the other way. Guys being just the same on all sides is fine for ww1, but it doesn't cut it in ww2.

tater

[leovampire]

Relax guys supose to be friendly and talking about problems, fix's and people needing help with things related to Triger Maru!

Go on the main page and start a war or discusion there so if people have questions about the mod or need help they can get it.

Please?!


Show some respect for Duciums work and don't start a war on his thread!

Now shake hands!!!!

[mrbeast]

Think this thread is getting a little off topic here.

[Kapteeni Rantala]

EDIT: Indeed, this is getting off topic, and I am willing to stop for my part.

I don't buy the "just doing their job" nonsense.

Neither do I - especially on command level. I am not defending people directly involved in war crimes, but I am not taking part in a crusade against tens of millions veterans on the Axis side who literally were doing their job - fighting for their country, and fighting for his country was not something that you can be accused of according to laws.

The japanese didn't sign any treaties regarding rules for warfare anyway

Right, they did not, but that doesn't give the right to accuse millions of soldier in the country's armed forces. To blame the entire military is absurd and makes things black and white.

One could also accuse the entire United States military, along with her Allies, of all crimes committed during the liberation of Europe (in which one of her Allies, the Soviet Union occupied several countries and annexed territory from Finland - which had been dragged into war by Soviet agression)

more than 50% of the japanese merchant marine was officially military (owned outright by the IJA and IJN).

There's still that another 50% along with a large number of privately owned fishing vessels.

The notion that people didn't know what was going on in Germany is plainly wrong, they did

To some extent, yes, but to claim that 90 million Germans knew about what exactly was going on is absurd. They knew that people were being persecuted - they did not know in masses that people were being gassed, only a handful, thousands of people out of 90 million knews what was going on. If you would hear of reactions of German people who had been told that the camps were "secret military factories and installations" and were later asked by the Allies for help at the liberated camps you would be suprised. Propaganda worked in Germany as it did in other countries, including the United States.

In any case, belive as you will if you really wish to.

[mrbeast]

Very 'On topic'. :hmm:

[Kapteeni Rantala]

I made that note after I had already posted the message, having written it while the two previous ones had already been posted.

[mrbeast]

No problem Kapteeni.

Just think some posts are getting a little heated.

[Kapteeni Rantala]

Now that a new page has been opened, back to the issue.

I don't know, really, if my problem with the deck gun (two pages back) are caused by a bug or the mod, but judging from some comments I'd say its a bug. I will try few things to see if it goes away.

Another issue; although I am aware of the fact that American torpedoes were not most reliable until later in war, is it normal for half of the fired torpedoes almost always to explode before hitting the target with "faulty torpedoes" setting turned on?

[mrbeast]

US torps had many problems initially, depth settings, magnetic detonators, contact detonators you name it!. Different problems got solved at different times but by around 1943 the Type 14 (the main offender for these problems) had been modified to an acceptable level.

My torpedoes seem too reliable if anything! If your getting half duds its actually better than RL!

[tater]

Sorry for the OT.

US fish were horrible. If they didn't fail with the magnetic pistol, they failed to detonate with anything close to a 90 degree impact on contact.

It;s really hard to tell how terrible they were because US doctrine was also poor. Early on, many attacks were made on sonar alone from 100ft down. Also, the doctrine for the magnetic pistol was to set the fish under the keel. That makes sense, but they set the fish to run 10-15 feet below the keel! They would not have detonated even had the fish not all run 10-12 feet deep. So the fish will only work on magnetic close to the hull, and they all shoot them too deep to work, and on top of that the fish run deep.

So the fish were all running 20+ feet below the keel of the targets (ALL ran 10-12 feet deep, NO early mk 14s ran true to depth, they were all calibrated wrong).

tater

[Kapteeni Rantala]

US torps had many problems initially...

US fish were horrible.

As I remembered, I was just wondering if they were THIS bad.

Ironically, Japan was the only country to have one thing that all countries except she lacked even in 1941-1942 - highly reliable torpedo. Unfortunately for Japanese, the country had overlooked the threat of submarine warfare agains't her.:hmm: