[REL] AI launched torpedoes

[Admiral Von Gerlach]

You Gentlemen should have a berth reserved for you at Goat Island.

You also deserve some comic relief:



and I appologize to young readers for the powerful highly techincal USN term so audibly used at the end of this video, it will be explained to you by your seniors.

and to let you know you have many brothers past and present in the field of TT testing and challenges beyond belief......here is the bottom line of the famous USN dud Torps laid bare for all ....finally and how tragically.


The problems with our WWII naval torpedoes have been recounted in myriad horror stories of technological blunders and bureaucratic superiority syndrome. Although these stories are for the most part
Capt. Bill Vose, 2004. Also by Bill Vose on this web site: How Lengo Channel was Swept for Mines.

basically factual, the reasons for the failures have mostly been ignored.
I had the unique experience to have been brought up by a Naval Officer who was a Post Graduate Ordnance Engineer (Torpedoes) (M.I.T. 1926). He always encouraged me to look at my surroundings in a mildly analytical fashion; to be inquisitive as to how things worked, and particularly, how man-made items were manufactured or constructed. As a result I was always keenly interested in all aspects of manufacturing and technological advances.
It was not until my teens, however, that I became very familiar with the MK 14 & 15 steam torpedoes, then the most modern in the US Navy. My father (then a LCDR) had been ordered to the Naval Torpedo Station at Newport, RI as Production Officer. We ultimately moved into quarters on the station which at that time was on Goat Island in Newport Harbor. Access to and from the station was by ferry. Our quarters were not in the group on the south end of the island, but were situated in the industrial area with our view from the front porch being Public Works headquarters and to the rear the paint shop. Behind the paint shop was my treasure trove, the clean scrap dump, from which I could collect cast-off torpedo parts to assemble or, best of all for a teenager, collect ¼-inch steel ball bearings, discarded during an engine overhaul. They made the best slingshot ammunition a youngster could ask for!
When Father was Station Duty Officer, he would often tour the manufacturing operation after dinner (the station was working at least two full shifts at the time). I would accompany him on almost all of these tours and as a result saw every mechanical manufacturing process including assembly and initial shop tests. After school I was more or less free to roam at will into the testing laboratory, pattern shop, foundry and boat shop, learning as much as I could about the skill of the various trades. I did not ever attempt to go into the main manufacturing areas such as heavy turning where air flasks were produced.
The one place I did not enter was adjacent to the Public Works Headquarters across the street from our quarters. It had all its windows painted to prevent seeing in. When I inquired as to what was happening inside I was told to ask my father, who told me it was a special operation which I was not privileged to know about. It was the assembly shop for the infamous magnetic exploder, which I soon discovered when warm weather set in and the shop windows were opened for ventilation. I also saw the exploders being removed from the torpedoes after they (torpedoes and exploders) had been proofed on the firing range to the north. Any questions I had were again answered by “Ask your Dad.”
Toward the end of my senior year in high school, Dad was ordered to the USS Enterprise and we moved to Hampton, Virginia. I attended Severn Prep School, then entered the Naval Academy in 1938. After graduation I was assigned to USS Gamble, DM 15, based at Pearl Harbor. During the ensuing 18 months I began to hear rumors of the problems with our torpedoes. They were mostly the submarine Mk 14 version, since they were the most fired. The reports were that the magnetic exploder would not work, the torpedoes ran deep, and if they impacted the target, they often would not detonate. I did not get the actual reasons for the problems until just before the end of WWII when they were related to me by my Father who had returned to the Torpedo Station where a test program to find the solutions had been in progress. The Submarine Station at Pearl Harbor also found solutions to the problems independently of the Bureau of Ordnance testing at Newport.
In today’s technology climate, live full scale testing of a weapon before acceptance is a routine matter, and it is difficult to understand why such testing was not performed on our WWII torpedoes unless one looks back in time to the late 1930s when these weapons were developed and produced. The nation had just emerged from the “great depression,” during which my father’s salary was cut 15%, and when he was promoted to LCDR in the early 1930s, he received no pay increase until full pay was restored after Franklin Roosevelt became President. I believe each Mk 14 or Mk 15 torpedo cost about $10,000 to $15,000, which at that time was an enormous amount of money for a single weapon! The proofing process for these torpedoes consisted of firing them from a test barge on the Navy range in Narragansett Bay using an exercise head with the same shape and dimensions of the warhead and filled with water ballast, which was expelled at the end of the run so that the torpedo became buoyant and could he recovered by surface craft. The magnetic exploder was also checked for proper actuation as it passed a simulated steel ship’s hull. The depth of the torpedo was recorded by a very accurate “Depth and Roll Recorder” which was inserted into the exercise head. These devices were manufactured by a well known English concern and, as I remember, each instrument had its own individually calibrated scale by which the ink (pencil?) record could he read. The record was generated by a clockwork tape drive pulling a paper tape under two markers: one marker was displaced from its zero point by the water pressure (depth) on the exposed end of the recorder; the other marker recorded the position of a pendulum within the recorder oriented to detect roll of the weapon from vertical throughout the run. The recorders were tested before and after a run for accuracy.
There is no question concerning the accuracy of these recorders. The problem lay in their location, which was immediately aft of the ogive forming the nose of the exercise head. Why the engineers at the time did not recognize that the recorder was located in a hydrodynamic low pressure area akin to the low pressure area above an airfoil is moot, but it obviously was not so recognized. Thus, calibration of the depth mechanism of the torpedo was based on presumed depths which were shallower than actual by an amount that was also dependent on torpedo speed. Had the run depth been verified by firing through nets, this problem would have surfaced long before our entry into WWII. Hindsight is so acute after the fact!
The second major problem was the almost total failure of the magnetic exploder, partly caused by the deep run problem, but which was a major design failure in that the exploders were designed and tested in north magnetic latitudes and had never been tested in south magnetic or equatorial magnetic latitudes. Once the deep run problem was recognized and the depth settings reduced so that impacts were obtained, the final major problem arose. The torpedo could be seen to impact a target and break up, rupturing the air flask but failing to explode! The impact exploder mechanism was an ingenious device utilizing a steel ball sandwiched between two steel concave plates which were lightly spring loaded so that the ball remained in the center of the plates. Any impetus to this assembly from any direction would displace the ball, spreading the plates and through other linkage releasing a firing pin. This device most likely never failed to release the firing pin upon impact. Again location was the key. On impact with a target the nose of the warhead was driven back and the cast TNT charge deformed the exploder cavity, jamming the firing pin before it could impact the primer. The mercury electrical impact switch developed by SubPac cured this problem.
As mentioned earlier, hindsight is so very acute after the fact. If live full scale tests had been conducted when I was in high school, these problems would most likely have been uncovered. But the thought of expending several or many weapons at $10K to $15K each would probably have caused massive heart failures in Washington, DC.
Capt. William F. Vose, USN (Ret.) was communications and sonar officer in USS Gamble and executive officer in USS Heywood L. Edwards.

thank you again both of you and Darkfish!...i will treasure each fish my AI fire if all this works out

[keltos01]

I don't know why they fire aft, that has to do with Darkfish's mod, I didn't tweak it.I'm glad to see that the number 3 turret has been replaced by a quad AA gun as should be and yet she fires ! (a bad rendering of Galileo Galilei's famous sentence "and yet she turns")Peabody, can you please post your upgraded version of my Somers ?and how do you make an ingame film ??????keltos

[peabody]

Originally Posted by keltos01

Peabody, can you please post your upgraded version of my Somers ?and how do you make an ingame film ??????keltos

Well, first you need a chase boat and then you MOD a deckgun into a camera and use the barrel as the lens. Then add a camera man to the crew.......

Most people use Fraps, but the free version has www.fraps.com or something like that at the top and it only records 30 seconds at a time. But is has a counter so you know when it is recording and when it stops, and you can start it again. Or you could buy it for $37 but I don't use it much.

So I used CamStudio, but I did notice one time I recorded something I didn't get it all, so I guess it has a limit too.

I think Fraps is much better quality if you want to spend the money. You can capture full frame or half frame and sound or no sound and you can do screen captures and set a time to do screen captures every so many seconds etc. Better program.

And then I have Vegas Movie Studio where I cut out parts that don't show what I want and make the final, but I didn't waste any time with this except for one I put it in a little 'slow motion' because the torps bounce around so fast you can't see them. I could have done lighting and contrast etc, but it wasn't necessary. I wish I had cropped a little closer though, it is hard to see especially on the second one. One thing I like with Vegas, it renders and uploads to YouTube automatically.

The aim did not aim backwards while I was using it, one section did point toward the back but the torps don't go that way, they all went off the side just like the third movie I posted. But I do want Darkfish to take a look, I may have messed up the aiming, hard to tell without some "controlled" testing.

Peabody

[keltos01]

Originally Posted by peabody

Well, first you need a chase boat and then you MOD a deckgun into a camera and use the barrel as the lens. Then add a camera man to the crew.......

Most people use Fraps, but the free version has www.fraps.com or something like that at the top and it only records 30 seconds at a time. But is has a counter so you know when it is recording and when it stops, and you can start it again. Or you could buy it for $37 but I don't use it much.

So I used CamStudio, but I did notice one time I recorded something I didn't get it all, so I guess it has a limit too.

I think Fraps is much better quality if you want to spend the money. You can capture full frame or half frame and sound or no sound and you can do screen captures and set a time to do screen captures every so many seconds etc. Better program.

And then I have Vegas Movie Studio where I cut out parts that don't show what I want and make the final, but I didn't waste any time with this except for one I put it in a little 'slow motion' because the torps bounce around so fast you can't see them. I could have done lighting and contrast etc, but it wasn't necessary. I wish I had cropped a little closer though, it is hard to see especially on the second one. One thing I like with Vegas, it renders and uploads to YouTube automatically.

The aim did not aim backwards while I was using it, one section did point toward the back but the torps don't go that way, they all went off the side just like the third movie I posted. But I do want Darkfish to take a look, I may have messed up the aiming, hard to tell without some "controlled" testing.

Peabody

Good, I will try and make some controlled testing if not tonight then tomorrow, I like the idea of a DD firing torpedoes !

and for once something I did during my breaks (I can't test here) did work !

I'll try the movie stuff.

keltos

[looney]

Originally Posted by polyfiller

Quick update on a convoy test mission I've just run .... 12 merchants, 4 escorts (including me in a V&W DD) ... 5 AI controlled U Boats straddling the convoy in classic attack positions. Result - 2 merchants survived plus me.... everything else sunk.
Only problem I am having is to control AI accuracy I am trying to limit the range the AI attempts to fire the torps ... I've set max range in the .sim to 2000m but the furthest sub from the convoy is nearer 4000 at the start of the mission and it insists on firing from that range. Any way to control the AI's understanding of range ?

That seems way to good. Max ships destroyed should be around 3-5

[peabody]

Originally Posted by polyfiller

Quick update on a convoy test mission I've just run .... 12 merchants, 4 escorts (including me in a V&W DD) ... 5 AI controlled U Boats straddling the convoy in classic attack positions. Result - 2 merchants survived plus me.... everything else sunk.
Only problem I am having is to control AI accuracy I am trying to limit the range the AI attempts to fire the torps ... I've set max range in the .sim to 2000m but the furthest sub from the convoy is nearer 4000 at the start of the mission and it insists on firing from that range. Any way to control the AI's understanding of range ?

I don't know if you already got this solved but W4lt3r did a tweak for me a LONG time ago for the playable surface ships. Try the Cfg folder and Sim.cfg. Since the 'launcher' is actually a gun, there is a setting for maximum range for an AI Cannon of 13000 M. Maybe that will help? Of course that will mess up the real guns. But on one test the guns sank all the ships before the torps could even get there.

Peabody

[keltos01]

Chidori Class Torpedo Boat :







http://www.acepilots.com/ships/chidori.html

Here's the RL Chidori.

Miners :




RL :



Armament:1 × 2, 1 × 1 - 127 mm (5.0 in) Type 3 guns
1 × 12.7 mm (0.50 in) machine gun
2 × 2 - 533 mm (21.0 in) torpedo tubes
8 × 533 mm (21.0 in) torpedoes
9 × depth charges


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chidori_class_torpedo_boat

although I saw one quad and two double torpedo launchers in the .eqp there is only the T01 in the .dat, so I guess he fixed that.

Otori Class Torpedo boat :



ArmamentŌtori, 1936)
3 x 12 cm/45 (4.7 inch) 11th Year Type ,
1 x (III) Type 94 Torpedo tubes
(3 x 6th Year Type torpedoes),
1 x Vickers 40 mm AA gun[2],
1 x 11 mm machine gun,
2 x paravanes

(Hiyodori, August 1944)
2 x 12 cm/45 (4.7 inch) 11th Year Type guns,
1 x (III) Type 94 Torpedo tubes
(3 x 6th Year Type torpedoes),
11 x Type 96 25 mm AA guns
48 × depth charges

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%8Ct...s_torpedo_boat

http://www.aeronautic.dk/Warship%20Sagi.htm

Originally Posted by miner1436

EDIT: I thought I had made the Chidori fire torpedos but I didn't. The link at the 1st post has been updated to include torpedo firing Chidori's.

Or download the new Chidori as a patch here

http://www.filefront.com/14689429/Ch...Torpedoes.zip/

keltos

[keltos01]

made by Peabody for me, I added the Chitori



Somers scattering torpedoes...





Chitori torpedoeing back ! for this test I left the 4 launchers torpedospawngun when she only should have 2 double


kindo forgot the Somers had good guns...




Chitori's second and last torpedo salvo away !




third salvo, we survived that great boooom !




Somers still firing torps, looks like they're heading our way...



The Somers sank the whole convoy with guns....


keltos

[keltos01]

added two Chitori one ahead of convoy one next to Somers to the one shadowing it.




this time the torps nearly head our way




but some of ours nearly got the Somers (look at the torpedo paths crossing each other's wake)



towards the merchie !

[Starforce2]

That's pretty cool. Are the torpedo in question the proper type or just reused sub torpedo?

[keltos01]

Darkfish : any more recent work on the torps ?

keltos

[keltos01]

Somers torpedo launchers setup : centered -> torpedoes bouncing off hull




Miner1436 set 4 launchers, 2 on either side.

I moved them from 0.69 to 0.75 in x


I'm at a loss, I really want swiveling torpedo gun turrets but not torpedoes bouncing around/..


Is there a way to make the torpedoes spawn further away from the launcher ?? without having to move the launcher from its rightful place ?

also : I have made an IJN surface torpedo mod, introducing the Long Lance torpedo for IJN surface units (playable)

is there any way to make the IJN ships use those ? much better than the US torpedoes...

IJN surface fleet torpedoes MOD

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...hlight=torpedo


keltos

[peabody]

Originally Posted by keltos01

Somers torpedo launchers setup : centered -> torpedoes bouncing off hull




Miner1436 set 4 launchers, 2 on either side.

I moved them from 0.69 to 0.75 in x


I'm at a loss, I really want swiveling torpedo gun turrets but not torpedoes bouncing around/..


Is there a way to make the torpedoes spawn further away from the launcher ?? without having to move the launcher from its rightful place ?

also : I have made an IJN surface torpedo mod, introducing the Long Lance torpedo for IJN surface units (playable)

is there any way to make the IJN ships use those ? much better than the US torpedoes...

IJN surface fleet torpedoes MOD

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...hlight=torpedo


keltos

I sent you one, the launcher stays on the ship, you make all of Darkfish's stuff invisible again, so the only thing you see is the launcher on the Somers and it swivels. I even showed a video????

Peabody

[Werewolf]

Could these AI lauched torpedoes be installed in submarines? In that case this would be a great addition to the cold war mod if the enemy subs and surface vesses were able to launch acoustic torpedoes! Although not active sonar homing ones it´s certainly an improvement. Some of us are still working on that cold war mod ....... I haven´t given it up yet

[keltos01]

Originally Posted by peabody

I sent you one, the launcher stays on the ship, you make all of Darkfish's stuff invisible again, so the only thing you see is the launcher on the Somers and it swivels. I even showed a video????

Peabody

ooooopps !!! yes but I didn't make the model invisible, i just noticed that the torps were headed kindo the right way, I tried it only once you know... then my wife came back

could you mod the chidori the same way ? or tell me how in baby steps ?

keltos