[WIP] Dud Torpedoes Hardcore - testers needed

CCIP · 04-23-07, 10:04 PM

For realism junkies and competent testers only, at the moment.

You know the drill, be sure to make a backup of your original Torpedoes_US.sim in data/Library

http://files.filefront.com/Torpedoes_USsim/;7349009;/fileinfo.html

What this mod intends to do is bring out the abysmal torpedo performance of early-war torpedoes. The torpedoes will mostly normalize by June 1943 and work as they should. I've consulted various sources for research on the types of failure, though it's by no means comprehensive as yet.

I've spent the day working with and testing various torpedo settings, mostly by the way of the faulty Mk 14. I have run about 200 torpedo tests at various settings, and have established a failure of approximately 4-5 per every 10 fired against a large static target from a perfect angle, varying depending on weather conditions, target aspect, and a few other aspect. This means that failures 'in action' where conditions are unpredictable will probably be more frequent.

WHAT I NEED is some good-willing guinea pigs :p I've done 'lab' testing of the Mk 14s; now I'd like people to play with them and report.
Warning: it will be frustrating. That's why I suggest that only hardcore realism junkies try this.

Will gladly take any suggestions or tweaks you make. Naturally, I don't own the idea so you can release your own variation of dud torpedo mod. I'm doing this mostly for the benefit of research, esp. for future RFB releases.

I want the best, most unforgivingly realistic results. Numerical accuracy (that is, technical data from real torpedoes) isn't a priority, however - what counts is the net results. We need to see a torpedo failure rate of 30% at the absolute best in early campaign, and much higher on average.

Be advised that some things don't work as they should and have to be compensated. For some strange reason, I can't find magnetic dud chance for the Mk14. That means that to compensate, I had to increase premature detonation chances a little and make the depth errors more pronounced. The magnetic influence trigger unfortunately still works too well when used at shallow depth as an impact trigger.

WHAT I DID
On the whole, I have seriously botched up the Mk 14s. They have relatively high chances of premature detonation (faulty influence trigger), dud (impact trigger jamming on impact, especially at right angles), and depth error chances with an average of about 10-11 feet. As I said, between these factors, I saw a failure rate of about 4-5/10 torpedoes fired in 'canned' tests against big static targets, with magnetics fired under the ship's keel performing most abysmally. This seems to be reflective of what I had been reading up on.

Mk 10s have been made slightly less reliable than originally, but much more reliable than Mk 14s. They still have a fairly pronounced depth error tendency, but will overall suffer much fewer failures if used for impact.

Post mid-1943, these failures go away. However, even for the 'fixed' older torpedoes and new torpedo types, I adjusted values somewhat to reflect a more realistic risk of failure. The Mk 27 Cutie is far less efficient now. There were some small increases in dud/premature chances and small depth errors.

I also reduced the chance of circle runners from 0.5% to 0.3%, mostly reflecting the reports I've heard from people - still never seen one in game, but my sense is that this value should be a little more adequate. At the same time, I've added a 2-5% of non-circular gyro failures to most torpedo types, so every once in a while you will see a torpedo go off course.

So, try it? Remember, this is not a final mod but a work in progress. I don't suggest using this unless you are an advanced SHIV user - it's a work in progress and isn't guaranteed to work as it's supposed to just yet.

04-23-07, 10:07 PM

Before you go too far, I am correcting a few mistakes I found in the Mark 14 file and checking others. The magnetic settings settings are there (in the Mark 14).

CCIP · 04-23-07, 10:11 PM

Oh great. (no, really

)

I'll still keep this file up but, if you can get the fixes - I'll fix it up immediately. Frankly, I just want to get a 'workshop' rolling on this; I spent the whole day tweaking and firing 200 torpedoes, and it's just not realistic for someone to find everything alone. May as well have multiple people working on their own varieties of it. We had that with SHIII sensors and a ton of great stuff came out!

Camaero · 04-23-07, 10:17 PM

Hey, give me more duds, lose a few hundred convoys, make the convoys you attack not just sit there after attacking, make the dds more of a challenge, you have the perfect game.

One step at a time I guess hehe. I'll test this.

CCIP · 04-23-07, 10:20 PM

Ironically, as soon as I grab some research, convoys are next on my list :p

Camaero · 04-23-07, 10:25 PM

I have tried to find information on jap convoy routes and numbers. That information seems pretty hard to find exactly. I didn't put much more than a 30 minute effort into it though.

CCIP · 04-24-07, 10:42 AM

http://files.filefront.com/Torpedoes.../fileinfo.html

There's that slight tweak. I adjusted the dud chances a little and re-added that speed factor (so that Mk 14's going at fast speeds will have more duds as they should), and reduced the gyro error chance slightly (from 5% to 3%, based on Egan's report that he had several of them per salvo - a little too much I think :p). Small tweaks to other types, too, and dumbed down the Mk 10 a little more (she's still good compared to the mk 14, though - right now I'm trying to aim for them being about twice more reliable than the mk 14).

Egan · 04-24-07, 10:55 AM

Cheers. Like I said; 6 out of 6 shots seems odd. I'm just building a quick pair of test firings - Not chancing my career game on any more just now! lol.

CCIP · 04-24-07, 11:06 AM

Well, it COULD happen of course. Seems very unlikely to say the least though! (in fact the chance of that should be one in thousands...)

I my tests where I wrote down results with the 5% chance, I had a total of 3 gyro errors per 60 torpedoes fired. My original intension was to have it somewhere in the area of 1 likely failure per a full patrol's load of torpedoes.

Should be a little less now.

Egan · 04-24-07, 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Egan

Cheers. Like I said; 6 out of 6 shots seems odd. I'm just building a quick pair of test firings - Not chancing my career game on any more just now! lol.

It's still happening.

I'm using the newer file. On patrol in Dec 41 I fire two torps at a merchant but they both pulled away to port about 30 degrees. I changed flank and attacked but the torpedo again pulled about 30 degrees to port. I'm pretty sure it's not just my aim. Both times I was bang on with my solution: (90 degree t-shot, target moving at 9kts and less than 1200 yards away.)

CCIP · 04-24-07, 04:02 PM

Wow, those gyros sure hate you it seems.

I'll look into it more. It shouldn't be happening that often, though, seems pretty odd...

Egan · 04-24-07, 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CCIP

Wow, those gyros sure hate you it seems.

I'll look into it more. It shouldn't be happening that often, though, seems pretty odd...

I uninstalled it And hit the first freighter that came by with two torps no problem. My shooting seems to be ok, like I thought.

Is no one else Getting constant gyro problems then? Just me? Lol, typical,:rotfl:

Krupp · 04-24-07, 04:15 PM

USS S-41, Dec 12 - Dec 16. Philippines

Total bag: 1800 tons, 12 MK 10 torpedoes used. 3 hits: 1 exploded, 1 dud, 1 glanced. 9 missed.

1. Taihosan Maru 1800 GRT - 3 torpedoes, AOB 90 SB, range 350 meters, 3 degree spread, 3 meter contact exploder. First hit amidships, other two missed. Ship sank in 5 minutes.

2. Task Force, target Horai Maru 9100 GRT - 4 torpedoes, AOB 90 P, range 1100 meters, 4 degree spread, 3 meter contact exploder. All missed.

3. Same target after reload, 2 torpedoes single shots, AOB 180, range 3000 and 4000 meters, 3 meter contact. Both barely missed on port side, less than ship width.

4. Conte Verde 19 000 GRT - 3 torpedoes, AOB 90 SB, range 600 meters, 3 meter contact exploder. Single shots, first hit amidship-dud, second glanced off, third missed.

I really like these results, the frustration after botched attacks is roof lifting. Very good immersion, especially without external camera. Promising start turned out to be just awfull and sickening patrol. This is the way to simulate bad torpedoes and lousy results. Not by wrong data in different sections of the game.

Bilge_Rat · 04-24-07, 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Krupp

I really like these results, the frustration after botched attacks is roof lifting. Very good immersion, especially without external camera. Promising start turned out to be just awfull and sickening patrol. This is the way to simulate bad torpedoes and lousy results. Not by wrong data in different sections of the game.

You wont get any argument from me on that point, I am looking forward to the day when I can start a Dec. 41 patrol from manila, have 90% of my torpedoes miss, only run into troop convoys heavily escorted by elite DDs or Task Forces zipping by at 20+ knots zigzagging furiously...then I will be having fun.

04-23-07, 10:04 PM	#1
CCIP Navy Seal Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Waterloo, Canada Posts: 8,700 Downloads: 29 Uploads: 2	[WIP] Dud Torpedoes Hardcore - testers needed For realism junkies and competent testers only, at the moment. You know the drill, be sure to make a backup of your original Torpedoes_US.sim in data/Library http://files.filefront.com/Torpedoes_USsim/;7349009;/fileinfo.html What this mod intends to do is bring out the abysmal torpedo performance of early-war torpedoes. The torpedoes will mostly normalize by June 1943 and work as they should. I've consulted various sources for research on the types of failure, though it's by no means comprehensive as yet. I've spent the day working with and testing various torpedo settings, mostly by the way of the faulty Mk 14. I have run about 200 torpedo tests at various settings, and have established a failure of approximately 4-5 per every 10 fired against a large static target from a perfect angle, varying depending on weather conditions, target aspect, and a few other aspect. This means that failures 'in action' where conditions are unpredictable will probably be more frequent. WHAT I NEED is some good-willing guinea pigs :p I've done 'lab' testing of the Mk 14s; now I'd like people to play with them and report. Warning: it will be frustrating. That's why I suggest that only hardcore realism junkies try this. Will gladly take any suggestions or tweaks you make. Naturally, I don't own the idea so you can release your own variation of dud torpedo mod. I'm doing this mostly for the benefit of research, esp. for future RFB releases. I want the best, most unforgivingly realistic results. Numerical accuracy (that is, technical data from real torpedoes) isn't a priority, however - what counts is the net results. We need to see a torpedo failure rate of 30% at the absolute best in early campaign, and much higher on average. Be advised that some things don't work as they should and have to be compensated. For some strange reason, I can't find magnetic dud chance for the Mk14. That means that to compensate, I had to increase premature detonation chances a little and make the depth errors more pronounced. The magnetic influence trigger unfortunately still works too well when used at shallow depth as an impact trigger. WHAT I DID On the whole, I have seriously botched up the Mk 14s. They have relatively high chances of premature detonation (faulty influence trigger), dud (impact trigger jamming on impact, especially at right angles), and depth error chances with an average of about 10-11 feet. As I said, between these factors, I saw a failure rate of about 4-5/10 torpedoes fired in 'canned' tests against big static targets, with magnetics fired under the ship's keel performing most abysmally. This seems to be reflective of what I had been reading up on. Mk 10s have been made slightly less reliable than originally, but much more reliable than Mk 14s. They still have a fairly pronounced depth error tendency, but will overall suffer much fewer failures if used for impact. Post mid-1943, these failures go away. However, even for the 'fixed' older torpedoes and new torpedo types, I adjusted values somewhat to reflect a more realistic risk of failure. The Mk 27 Cutie is far less efficient now. There were some small increases in dud/premature chances and small depth errors. I also reduced the chance of circle runners from 0.5% to 0.3%, mostly reflecting the reports I've heard from people - still never seen one in game, but my sense is that this value should be a little more adequate. At the same time, I've added a 2-5% of non-circular gyro failures to most torpedo types, so every once in a while you will see a torpedo go off course. So, try it? Remember, this is not a final mod but a work in progress. I don't suggest using this unless you are an advanced SHIV user - it's a work in progress and isn't guaranteed to work as it's supposed to just yet. __________________ There are only forty people in the world and five of them are hamburgers. -Don Van Vliet (aka Captain Beefheart) Last edited by CCIP; 04-26-07 at 09:21 AM.

04-23-07, 10:11 PM	#3
CCIP Navy Seal Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Waterloo, Canada Posts: 8,700 Downloads: 29 Uploads: 2	Oh great. (no, really ) I'll still keep this file up but, if you can get the fixes - I'll fix it up immediately. Frankly, I just want to get a 'workshop' rolling on this; I spent the whole day tweaking and firing 200 torpedoes, and it's just not realistic for someone to find everything alone. May as well have multiple people working on their own varieties of it. We had that with SHIII sensors and a ton of great stuff came out! __________________ There are only forty people in the world and five of them are hamburgers. -Don Van Vliet (aka Captain Beefheart)

04-23-07, 10:17 PM	#4
Camaero The Old Man Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: USA, Massachusetts Posts: 1,477 Downloads: 18 Uploads: 0	Hey, give me more duds, lose a few hundred convoys, make the convoys you attack not just sit there after attacking, make the dds more of a challenge, you have the perfect game. One step at a time I guess hehe. I'll test this. __________________

04-23-07, 10:20 PM	#5
CCIP Navy Seal Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Waterloo, Canada Posts: 8,700 Downloads: 29 Uploads: 2	Ironically, as soon as I grab some research, convoys are next on my list :p __________________ There are only forty people in the world and five of them are hamburgers. -Don Van Vliet (aka Captain Beefheart)

04-23-07, 10:25 PM	#6
Camaero The Old Man Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: USA, Massachusetts Posts: 1,477 Downloads: 18 Uploads: 0	I have tried to find information on jap convoy routes and numbers. That information seems pretty hard to find exactly. I didn't put much more than a 30 minute effort into it though. __________________

04-23-07, 10:07 PM	#2
nvdrifter Stowaway Posts: n/a Downloads: Uploads:	Before you go too far, I am correcting a few mistakes I found in the Mark 14 file and checking others. The magnetic settings settings are there (in the Mark 14).

04-24-07, 10:42 AM	#7
CCIP Navy Seal Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Waterloo, Canada Posts: 8,700 Downloads: 29 Uploads: 2	http://files.filefront.com/Torpedoes.../fileinfo.html There's that slight tweak. I adjusted the dud chances a little and re-added that speed factor (so that Mk 14's going at fast speeds will have more duds as they should), and reduced the gyro error chance slightly (from 5% to 3%, based on Egan's report that he had several of them per salvo - a little too much I think :p). Small tweaks to other types, too, and dumbed down the Mk 10 a little more (she's still good compared to the mk 14, though - right now I'm trying to aim for them being about twice more reliable than the mk 14). __________________ There are only forty people in the world and five of them are hamburgers. -Don Van Vliet (aka Captain Beefheart)

04-24-07, 10:55 AM	#8
Egan Admiral Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 2,020 Downloads: 15 Uploads: 0	Cheers. Like I said; 6 out of 6 shots seems odd. I'm just building a quick pair of test firings - Not chancing my career game on any more just now! lol.

04-24-07, 11:06 AM	#9
CCIP Navy Seal Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Waterloo, Canada Posts: 8,700 Downloads: 29 Uploads: 2	Well, it COULD happen of course. Seems very unlikely to say the least though! (in fact the chance of that should be one in thousands...) I my tests where I wrote down results with the 5% chance, I had a total of 3 gyro errors per 60 torpedoes fired. My original intension was to have it somewhere in the area of 1 likely failure per a full patrol's load of torpedoes. Should be a little less now. __________________ There are only forty people in the world and five of them are hamburgers. -Don Van Vliet (aka Captain Beefheart)

04-24-07, 04:02 PM	#11
CCIP Navy Seal Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Waterloo, Canada Posts: 8,700 Downloads: 29 Uploads: 2	Wow, those gyros sure hate you it seems. I'll look into it more. It shouldn't be happening that often, though, seems pretty odd... __________________ There are only forty people in the world and five of them are hamburgers. -Don Van Vliet (aka Captain Beefheart)

04-24-07, 04:15 PM	#13
Krupp Weps Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 351 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	USS S-41, Dec 12 - Dec 16. Philippines Total bag: 1800 tons, 12 MK 10 torpedoes used. 3 hits: 1 exploded, 1 dud, 1 glanced. 9 missed. 1. Taihosan Maru 1800 GRT - 3 torpedoes, AOB 90 SB, range 350 meters, 3 degree spread, 3 meter contact exploder. First hit amidships, other two missed. Ship sank in 5 minutes. 2. Task Force, target Horai Maru 9100 GRT - 4 torpedoes, AOB 90 P, range 1100 meters, 4 degree spread, 3 meter contact exploder. All missed. 3. Same target after reload, 2 torpedoes single shots, AOB 180, range 3000 and 4000 meters, 3 meter contact. Both barely missed on port side, less than ship width. 4. Conte Verde 19 000 GRT - 3 torpedoes, AOB 90 SB, range 600 meters, 3 meter contact exploder. Single shots, first hit amidship-dud, second glanced off, third missed. I really like these results, the frustration after botched attacks is roof lifting. Very good immersion, especially without external camera. Promising start turned out to be just awfull and sickening patrol. This is the way to simulate bad torpedoes and lousy results. Not by wrong data in different sections of the game. __________________ "Gentlemen, we have no choice. Total engagement. Die with dignity."