U-boat Maximum Ranges Overhauled in GWX 2.1

[Kpt. Lehmann]

All player U-boat ranges have been updated in GWX 2.1.

Please see notes at bottom of post.

Please also note, as Pablo has discovered that the SH3 map is too large at the equator and much worse near the poles as you'd expect on a mercator projection map...

Paraphrased excerpts from Pablo's posts at the Lair:
"Given that the "world" of Silent Hunter III is much larger than it is in real life, if we grant "historical" actual ranges to player U-boats may oftern not have enough fuel to reach their assigned patrol areas and return to base unless they are refueled, such as with Type IXB missions to the U.S. Atlantic seaboard.

It is difficult to address the problem, since the difference between "real world" range and Silent Hunter III range varies with latitude: north-south offsets are always about 10% larger in the Silent Hunter III world than in real life, but the east-west offset starts at 10% at the equator and just gets bigger as you move further away from the equator.

Distance margins of error approach being infinitely larger as you approach the north pole. For example, the real-life distance between one degree of longitude at 72 degrees North or South latitude is 120 kilometers in Silent Hunter III, but is only 34 kilometers in real life; at 45 degrees North or South latitude, the real-life distance is about 79 km compared to 120 km in Silent Hunter III.

This can make missions against Russian convoys are real pain in the saddle tanks."

This is a major/serious discovery that demands reactionary modification.

Strict historical ranges in SH3/GWX are not possible. The best I could do with fuel-range alterations due to all the limiting factors in SH3 is to basically give them a proper "curve" gradient.

Though they will not be historically accurate, they will be better in a proportionally accurate sense within the confines of the SH3 platform.

As a result, I have given the Type II boats 33% more range as they generally operate far north of the equator... where map extension/distortion is at its worst.

I have given all other player U-boat types 25% more range as they will be called on to generally work areas closer to the equator... where map distortion is less.

Surfaced range values found in the .sim files are stated in nautical miles. In-game values are of course given in kilometers.

ALL new ranges were determined at 12 knots speed via using the navigation officer range estimation function over 15-20 minutes at 1x time compression. (Using this function too quickly will yield inaccurate estimates. Apparently the game engine needs a few minutes for physics calculations to stabilize at steady speeds. The variance is more noticeable when dropping out of progressively higher TC settings. Range estimations while using time compression are only generally accurate... with wide +/- margins of error.)

Plugging real life values into the .sim file for range vs knots is useless. It must be adjusted, then tested in game... then re-adjusted as necessary until correct in-game.


New (final) ranges as for GWX 2.1.


Type IIA (range for this boat is now modelled as being that of the Type IIB)
New range: approx 4400 km

Type IID
New Range: approx 8500 km

Type VIIB
New range: approx 15000 km

Type VIIC
New range: approx 15000 km

Type IXB
New range: approx 20100 km

Type IXC
New range: approx 25500 km

Type IXD2
New range: approx 55000 km

Type XXI
New range: approx 25800 km

******************************************

All ranges are based on quotes by Eberhard Rossler from "The U-boat - The evolution and technical history of German submarines."

Type IIB- 1800 nm (3333 km) @ 12 kts
(+33% yielded in-game target of approx 4400 km)

Type IID- 3450 nm (6389 km) @ 12 kts
(+33% yielded in-game target of 8500 km)

Type VIIB- 6500 nm (12038 km) @ 12 kts
(+25% yielded in-game target of 15047 km)

Type VIIC- 6500 nm (12038 km) @ 12 kts
(+25% yielded in-game target of 15047 km)

Type IXB- 8700 nm (16112 km) @ 12 kts
(+25% yielded in-game target of 20140 km)

Type IXC- 11000 nm (20372 km) @ 12 kts
(+25% yielded in-game target of 25465 km)

Type IXD2- 23700 nm (43892 km) @ 12 kts
(+25% yielded in-game target of 54865 km)

Type XXI- 11150 nm (20650 km) @ 12 kts
(+25% yielded in-game target of 25813 km)


NOTES:
It appears to me that the SH3 devs used the exact same source as we have... as all stock values and speeds for surfaced performance of RL U-boats were identical to the Rossler quotes.
However, it is obvious to me based on in-game performance that they did not effectively take into account the simulator effects of engine power or hydrodynamic forces effect on range.

All tests in GWX were done in 4 mps winds at 12 knots.

(based on black needle actual speed... not ahead full etc... or ordering 12 knots with only 11 knots actual speed showing.)

When ranges are estimated by the navigation officer in SH3, several minutes must pass while cruising at a constant speed.

Navigation officer estimations are initially wild after coming out of any elevated TC... but settle-out over 10-15 minutes at constant speed after dropping to 1xTC.

No range estimation testing was done (or will be done) using time compression. Time compression worsens any calculation in SH3. (Only very rough range estimations can be obtained while using TC.)

IMPORTANT!!!
Regarding drag settings, surface draft, and engine power settings... changes to any will cause U-boat ranges to (AGAIN) need complete overhaul/rework. Even small changes will cause drastic changes in total range.

Plugging real life values into the .sim file for range vs knots is useless. It must be adjusted, then tested in game... then re-adjusted as necessary until correct in-game.

Engine upgrades have been removed in GWX 2.1. Engine upgrades in SH3 are not historically accurate. Furthermore, if engine upgrades were retained in GWX, 'fuel consumption' would increase... again reducing maximum patrol ranges, and rendering any methodical/definitive solution rather impossible.

Special thanks to Penelope_Grey, Jimbuna, and Danlisa for their assistance, input, and involvement with this modification following Pablo's discovery of the problem.

[Ivan Putski]

Interesting Kpt. Lehmann, quite a mess the SHIII dev team created, wonder if SHIV is in the same boat (pun intended). Thank you for the explaining the changes being made. Puts

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Originally Posted by Ivan Putski

Interesting Kpt. Lehmann, quite a mess the SHIII dev team created, wonder if SHIV is in the same boat (pun intended). Thank you for the explaining the changes being made. Puts

I strongly suspect that the SH4 "world" has inherited the exact same problem. (Being much larger in size than in real life.)

Please note that ANY unofficial mod for GWX containing player U-boat .sim files prior to the upcoming release of GWX 2.1, will suffer from range limitations described above... and as a result are NOT COMPATIBLE until they are adjusted by respective modders.

[Wolfehunter]

Kpt you forgot about IXC/40 and VIIC/41 specs. Those are upgradeable and IXC/40 has 400 more distants than the IXC.:hmm: I believe those will have to be adjusted too.

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Originally Posted by Wolfehunter

Kpt you forgot about IXC/40 and VIIC/41 specs. Those are upgradeable and IXC/40 has 400 more distants than the IXC.:hmm: I believe those will have to be adjusted too.

Nope, I didn't forget.

The IXC/40 and VIIC/41 do not have their own .sim file in SH3 governing their unique respective physics. The SH3 devs chose to have them share the standard IXC and VIIC .sim files/physics respectively.

Adding further included optional mods would only generate further confusion among users and would include other risks we are unwilling to take for the final update.

[Wolfehunter]

Originally Posted by Kpt. Lehmann

Nope, I didn't forget.

The IXC/40 and VIIC/41 do not have their own .sim file in SH3 governing their unique respective physics. The SH3 devs chose to have them share the standard IXC and VIIC .sim files/physics respectively.

oh ok. To bad I was hoping that my IXC/40 would be able to take advantage of that 400 more... So its only on paper..... If you give me the information I could make a simple mod addon that gives the spec of a IXC/40 and VIIC/41. When a player upgrades he she would leave the game and then add the mod similar to your VIIC/41 in JSGME over VIIC and IXC.
I also could wait till you release GWX 2.1 and then tackle it..:hmm:
Your call chief.

[Philipp_Thomsen]

And what about that "floating duck" effect on the VII types? Were they corrected for the GWX 2.1 version? The draught was too high, and correcting that will decrease a lot the distances they could travell. And they sure need fixing. The correct draught for the VII type is around 5.2 meters.

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Originally Posted by Philipp_Thomsen

And what about that "floating duck" effect on the VII types? Were they corrected for the GWX 2.1 version? The draught was too high, and correcting that will decrease a lot the distances they could travell. And they sure need fixing. The correct draught for the VII type is around 5.2 meters.

What you are stating is either an opinion or as a result of modifications you have made to your installation. The drafts for both the VIIB and VIIC are correct in GWX. (Though in RL draft could be varied somewhat... in SH3 it cannot be varied.)

As a matter of course, each player U-boat draft was checked by me during the range correction modifications. The only draft correction that I felt necessary was made to the IXD2. (It only needed to sit one meter deeper into the water. This change was made prior to sorting out its new range.)

Somewhere I posted a link to screenshots of each player U-boat draft in relatively calm seas, taken during testing of the modifications described above. If I can find it, I will post it.

However, this thread is to inform GWX players of range changes of the player U-boats in GWX... It is not meant to open a debate amongst various individual schools of thought regarding U-boat physics. SH3 platform limitations cause many either/or decisions to be made. We have made our decisions concerning U-boat physics.

[Wreford-Brown]

Awesome piece of work.
Researched values, adjusted for the limitations of SH3 then tested, tested, tested.

Once again the GWX team are proving that there is no detail, however small, that you won't fix in the search for historical accuracy.

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Further supporting notes from Pablo, posted at the Lair:

Regarding the question of U-boat ranges, here are some potentially useful comparisons between the real world and the world as it is modeled in Silent Hunter III:

• The surface area of the earth

  Real life: ~510 million square kilometers (km^2).
  
  SH3: ~933 million km^2 (180° N-S x 360° E-W x 14400 km^2/deg^2)

• Distance per degree of longitude at 5° N/S latitude (Penang/Jakarta)

  Real world: ~111 km
  
  SH3: 120 km

• Distance per degree of longitude at 45° N/S latitude (La Spezia)

  Real world: ~79 km
  
  SH3 World: 120 km

• Distance per degree of longitude at 63° N/S latitude (Trondheim)

  Real world: ~50 km
  
  SH3 World: 120 km

• Distance per degree of longitude at 74° N/S latitude (Svalbard)

  Real world: ~31 km
  
  SH3 World: 120 km

• Distance per degree of latitude (all latitudes)

  Real world: ~111 km
  
  SH3 World: 120 km

The complicating game factors are:

• Almost all of the gameplay in SH3/GWX occurs between 74°N latitude (Svalbard) and about 40°S latitude (Cape Town, South Africa; Melbourne, Australia)
• U-boat bases can be found from near the equator (Penang) to over 60 degrees N latitude (Trondheim).
• Silent Hunter III entails a lot of east-west sailing as well as north-south, so I don't think we should base range changes solely on the effect of changing latitude.

I suggest basing the new range on the extent to which the SH3 world is larger than the real world at the point where the U-boats are operating, as follows:

SH3: the distance from Point "A" to Point "B" is always square root of (120^2 + 120^2), or about ~170km by the Pythagorean Theorem.

Real: distance obtained from "Latitude/Longitude Distance Calculator," http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/gccalc.shtml

Case 1: 45°N latitude (La Spezia)

Real life: the distance from Point "A" to Point "B" is ~136 km

The "SH3:Real" ratio is 170:136, or about 1.25:1

Case 2: 54°N latitude (Kiel)

Real life: the distance from Point "A" to Point "B" is ~128 km

The "SH3:Real" ratio is 170:128, or about 1.33:1.

Case 3: 63°N latitude (Trondheim)

Real life: the distance from Point "A" to Point "B" is ~122 km

The "SH3:Real" ratio is 170:122, or about 1.39:1

I suggest increasing the U-boat ranges from their historical values by different amounts to account for the "fat, flat, and square" world of Silent Hunter III:

• Type II U-boats: increase by about 33% for specified range/speed combinations, since they operate only in the mid-latitudes of the North Sea or the Black Sea
• Type VII, IX, and XXI U-boats: increase their range by about 25% at specified range/speed combinations, since they can or will operate from the poles to the equator, and the 25% increase roughly reflects the increased size of the world half-way between the poles and the equator.

[sabretwo]

Sounds great. After two trips to the US in an IXB, it was apparent that the stock sub ranges were unrealistic.

What is the easiest way to modify the current GWX 2.0 files to reflect the more accurate ranges (I'm getting ready to visit the US again soon!). Is there a JSGME-ready mod out there yet for this?

[irish1958]

Originally Posted by sabretwo

Sounds great. After two trips to the US in an IXB, it was apparent that the stock sub ranges were unrealistic.

What is the easiest way to modify the current GWX 2.0 files to reflect the more accurate ranges (I'm getting ready to visit the US again soon!). Is there a JSGME-ready mod out there yet for this?

Simplest way is to disable the fuel range in the SHIII options. The other way is to change the .sim file for your boat.

[JScones]

Originally Posted by irish1958

Simplest way is to disable the fuel range in the SHIII options. The other way is to change the .sim file for your boat.

And perhaps the second easiest/laziest way, if you use SH3Cmdr, is just to add the following lines to the end of Static settings.cfg, replacing the <new range in nm> placeholders with the appropriate values in the process.

[data\Submarine\NSS_Uboat7b\NSS_Uboat7b.sim]
x05BB=<new range in nm>
 
[data\Submarine\NSS_Uboat7c\NSS_Uboat7c.sim]
x05BB=<new range in nm>
 
[data\Submarine\NSS_Uboat9b\NSS_Uboat9b.sim]
x0603=<new range in nm>
 
[data\Submarine\NSS_Uboat9c\NSS_Uboat9c.sim]
x0603=<new range in nm>
 
[data\Submarine\NSS_Uboat9d2\NSS_Uboat9d2.sim]
x0603=<new range in nm>
 
[data\Submarine\NSS_Uboat21\NSS_Uboat21.sim]
x08E1=<new range in nm>

Then just let SH3Cmdr do all the file writing.

[irish1958]

Is there no end to what SH3CMDR can do?

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by irish1958

Is there no end to what SH3CMDR can do?

I still can't get it to make me breakfast.

Crappy garbage program.:rotfl:

Or did I just install it wrong?