Realism- and gameplay-related hardcode fixes for SH3.EXE

[don1reed]

Excellent work h.sie and Steibler.

I play multi-games and your Mods work well with CCoM, WAC, LSH3, GWX, NYGM, and one I've concocted that I call Stiller Jager. Again, Bravo!

So much for the boast: "One torpedo, one ship."

I find myself using the Salvo option a lot more due to the duds and deep runners. I'm sure an intended consequence. I find myself very fortunate ending a patrol in my canoe with only one or two sinkings if any.

Contrary to popular belief, not all can be a Kretchmer.

On a final note, I use Hitman's Periscope mod on all games and I usually install it last due to some conflicts I've experienced.

[max-peck]

Originally Posted by PapaKilo

Hi. I've tried the wolfpack fix. However I'm not sure how should I send contact reports properly ? With course and speed info ? I think I know how to report speed of the convoy, I have to input it into my TDC dial, but how should I set it's course so the report wouldn't look like a bad joke ?

Yes you are correct. Use the TDC also to input the course of the convoy.

From page 1 of this thread:
'When you find a convoy, you should inform BDU about details. Thus, roughly estimate the convoy's course and speed and put these two values into the two TDC dials "Bearing" and "Speed" (German: Zielrichtung & Gegnerfahrt). If the convoy is heading north, set course to 0°, if it's heading east, set course to 90° and so on. Then, press 'M' key in order to send the contact report. You'll see these two values for course and speed in the contact report. '

Rgt, thanks

[Leitender]

hi h.sie - thanks for your reply at MarineSims-Forum. Maybe better publish my testing results here:

Torpedotest 01.07.1939, Deutsche Bucht, Type VIIB

TI G7A torpedo, magnetic pistol (MZ)!, 4 torp salvo, salvo angle 0°, wind 15m/s!


Test, Speed, Torp Depth, Distance, Prematures

1. 44kn, 25m, 5000m, 3: 1´05, 1´10, 1´30min

2. 44kn, 25m, 5000m, 2: 1´20, 2´30

3. 44kn 25m 5000m 1: 1´55

4. 44kn 1m 5000m 4: 1´05, 1´20

5. 44kn 1m 5000m 3: 1´15 (2x), 1´27

6. 44kn 1m 5000m 3: 2´17, 3´30, 3´05

7. 40kn 1m 7500m 3: 2´40 (2x), 5´35

8. 40kn 1m 7500m 3: 0´37, 1´00, 3´25

9. 30kn 25m 12000m 4: 0´45, 4´30, 8´00, 12,10

10. 30kn 1m 12000m 1: 5´45

11. 30kn 1m 12000m 3: 2´30, 5´35

12. 30kn 25m 12000m 3: 3´25, 6´05, 9´00


In total: 33 of 48 torps were prematures within their max. range. This is a ratio of 69%! AND: This is stock behaviour!

Didn´t activate your torp failure mod yet. Impact pistol not tested yet. Will follow. Please compare these results to them at post #2595 from LGN1.

[LGN1]

Hi Leitender,

thanks for doing some more tests

Just a few comments:

1.) The 44kn speed setting was not used on u-boats until middle of 1942, IIRC. I don't know whether it also holds for SH3, but in SH4 the failure rate depends on the speed setting. Therefore, I think one should exclude the 44kn setting from testing.

2.) At 15m/s wind speed and a running depth of 1m the torpedo should not even run 300m.

3.) I have the feeling that the distance at which a premature explosion happens is equally distributed, i.e., an equal percentage of torpedoes explodes at x meters and y meters. This is historically wrong because many torpedoes exploded right after the arming distance.

4.) Both historically and in SH3 most early-war shots were/are short-distance shots (<2000m). Thus, I think the premature explosions at distances greater than, let's say, 4000m are not really relevant.

Cheers, LGN1

PS: If you look at your 30kn results, there is only one premature explosion below 2000m and only three below 4000m, i.e., approx. 19%.

[Leitender]

Hi LGN1,

I´m glad if i can contribute something for the comunity. My first intention was to observe prematures at all, maybe their contribution or at least some dependencies, without concerning what kaleuns should learn from how to behave. The result is, there is an astonishing high percentage of prematures already simulated in stock version. As mentioned, tests with impact pistol will follow.

To answer your points: I didn´t know that the 44kn-setting was not used in early war times. Wasn´t it used because of operational order or was it a later introduced improvement? In the first case, not using this setting would falsify our ratio as i believe that the order followed the awareness of the prematures and wasn´t independent of them. Why else shouldn´t it be used? Finally, over all the ratio seems to be independent of the chosen speed, so it has no influence, whether we include or exclude this speed.

ad 2.: if this is the result of our research: I´ll agree. But first let´s take a look if this effect is implemented at all.

ad 3.: The times attached to the numbers of prematures above show imho a certain concentration at the first third or at least the first half. Maybe random, of course. But it confirms my feeling. The duration for a 5000m run at 44kn is approx. 4 min., for a 7500m run at 40kn approx. 6 min., and for a 12km run at 30kn 13 min. See when the torps exploded.

ad 4.: Same thing than before: The torps were constructed to reach that ranges, at least in threory. To reduce the max distance for a shot to, say, 2000m or less, is really a correct conclusion. But it´s a conclusion based on experiences made in the "green"

ad your PS: Even with only 30kn i achieved a ratio of 11 of 16 (69%) which is exactly average. Hm. I agree that less velocity should maybe lead to more relieble behaviour. And, obviously, depth has no influence on ratio. Maybe too less tests. But what I would like to point out is that we mustn´t consider our experience and knowledge when we test the failure ratio included in the game. Analysis has to be done afterwards.

Btw, this answer isn´t meant to be a hard criticism of your post. I really appreciate your posts and your work for the com! So please continue with our controversial discussion!

Greetings.

Originally Posted by max-peck

Yes you are correct. Use the TDC also to input the course of the convoy.

From page 1 of this thread:
'When you find a convoy, you should inform BDU about details. Thus, roughly estimate the convoy's course and speed and put these two values into the two TDC dials "Bearing" and "Speed" (German: Zielrichtung & Gegnerfahrt). If the convoy is heading north, set course to 0°, if it's heading east, set course to 90° and so on. Then, press 'M' key in order to send the contact report. You'll see these two values for course and speed in the contact report. '

One more question. Before sending the contact report, should I leave TDC panel locked or unlocked after I set bearing and speed ? If I set bearing on the disk without turning the scope, the disk is reset after lock/unlock to the bearing the scope is left at.

[max-peck]

I'm not sure PapaKilo.

I've only just installed the Wolfpack addition (V163A), and haven't come across a convoy yet. I was just reposting the instructions I had seen at the start of the post

I would assume that you leave it unlocked, or it snaps back to zero as you have said.

I'm going to have a little play in the Wolfpack single test mission that came with the mod. I'll get back to you with results.

By the way I assume observation scope shouldn't be having effect on TDC bearing disk, only attack scope does right ?

[LGN1]

Hi Leitender,

thanks for your reply. From what I have found, it seems the fastest setting for the G7A torpedo was banned in March '40.

The torpedo failure fix has two main aims:

1.) To force the player to set the torpedo to a depth deep enough to avoid surface-runners.

2.) To have an average failure rate that corresponds with the historical failure rate no matter what the player does (the player should not benefit from knowledge that the commanders back then did not have). The failure rate from Nov. 1939 to April 1940 was considered to be 26% by the KM (all kind of failures: pre-mature explosions, propulsion problems,..., but no misses). For the magnetic pistol h.sie has a failure rate of 15% plus the pre-mature explosions already present in SH3. I don't think that the failure rate in SH3 averaged over all wind-speeds is much higher than 10%.

Cheers, LGN1

[LGN1]

Originally Posted by PapaKilo

By the way I assume observation scope shouldn't be having effect on TDC bearing disk, only attack scope does right ?

IIRC, that's wrong It's the last item you have used, i.e., it can be the UZO, the observation scope, or the attack scope.

[Leitender]

Hi LGN1,

Torpedotest 01.07.1939, Deutsche Bucht, Type VIIB

TI G7A torpedo, impact pistol (AZ)!, 4 torp salvo, salvo angle 0°, wind 15m/s!


Test, Speed, Torp Depth, Distance, Prematures: Time

1. 44kn, 25m, 5000m, 2: 0´55, 2´40

2. 44kn, 25m, 5000m, 1: 1´10

3. 44kn 25m 5000m 3: 0´25, 1´40, 2´01

4. 44kn 1m 5000m 2: 0´25, 1´05

5. 44kn 1m 5000m 1: 1´00

6. 44kn 1m 5000m 2: 0´55, 1´15

7. 40kn 1m 7500m 2: 1´23, 6´03

8. 40kn 1m 7500m 1: 0´50

9. 30kn 25m 12000m 2: 0´30, 6´55

10. 30kn 1m 12000m 1: 8´10

11. 30kn 1m 12000m 3: 1´18, 2´37, 10´30

12. 30kn 25m 12000m 1: 9´50

13. 30kn 25m 12000m 3: 6´20, 10´45, 12´00

Results:

1. 24/52 were failures, which ist a ratio of 46%!

2. It seems to me that, this time, the distribution of prematures was really random, with no concentration in the beginning, unlike the magnetic pistol fitted torps in my first test.

3. The test seems to confirm: Size, I mean depth doesn´t matter.

4. But pistol obviously does matter! 46% (AZ) vs. 69% (MZ).

Of course, these were only testings in worst (weather) case, but the results don´t stand in opposition to the reported 12% overall failure rate.

To come to your points:

Ad 1: depth-dependant failures are certainly historically correct, so h.sie´s improvement is very welcome, of course.

Ad 2: Like i supposed: Restriction in using the speed was result of the high failure rate. So we have to regard high speed failures as well.

What i still don´t know, is whether the dependency of pistol is historically accurate or not. I was always teached to use only impact pistol when in heavy seas. At least with stock behaviour this should be correct. With h.sies pistol-dependant added failure rate, this should lead to different results and thus to differant behaviour by the kaleuns. Is this historically correct?

Greetings

[LGN1]

Hi Leitender,

I was really surprised to see your report about premature explosions with the AZ pistol (because people here always claim that there are no premature explosions in this case and in fact, in SH4 there are no premature explosions with the AZ pistol). So, I tested it myself and didn't observe a single premature explosion with the AZ pistol

My suspicion is that your findings are due to the fact that you are firing a salvo. And indeed, if you choose the salvo mode, switch to AZ, and then switch back to single-shot mode, you will see that only torpedo number one is set to AZ. The rest is still MZ. That would also explain why you never saw four premature explosions, but only three.

Cheers, LGN1

PS: Concerning historical behavior: Early in the war u-boat commanders could not easily switch from AZ to MZ. In addition, there were many different orders what pistol to use,... so without further work the situation in SH3 will never be historically correct. Therefore, I think h.sie's torpedo fix with a similar failure rate of approx. 25% for AZ and MZ until after the invasion of Norway is the best we can have. If one pistol is more reliable, players will always use this pistol and obtain a failure rate that is lower than the historical one.

[h.sie]

I can confirm LGN1's finding: If you choose "salvo" and than switch to impact, only the 1st torpedo is an impact, all others are still magnetic.

It's a game bug.

One has to manually set all 4 torpedoes to impact one-by-one and then switch to salvo mode.

[Leitender]

Hi LGN1 an h.sie,

I have to confess that i wasn´t aware of this - let´s say - bug, because in campaign-mode i use to check my settings several times - not so in the above test

I redo my test and will report!

Greetings.