Gun Control thread (merged many)

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by August

I'm sure there are plenty of Democrats and Republicans who would love to make this a party partisan issue but it's not. There are plenty of Democrat 2nd Amendment supporters and plenty of Republican anti-gunners.

Oh, I fully agree, I just used Reps and Dems as a place-holder name more than anything, it all boils down to individual senator opinion and/or the wave of emotion of the state they represent.
Certainly there's a big swell of anti-gun sentiment following Sandy Hook and I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that those in the anti-gun lobby have fully exploited the revulsion and horror at what took place that day for their political movement. Just as I am sure that those in the other camp would exploit a situation where an individual could have been saved by the use of a firearm.
What should concern any supporter of the second amendment though is the 'Chicken Little' effect, or the 'Boy who cried wolf' effect. Right now there are so many people reposting various scare stories about how the second amendment is going to be shredded by a government that is keen to strip away the rights of its citizens to exploit them that after you've read or watched one, you've pretty much watched or read all of them, it's a message that's being repeated over and over and over again and only the people who are shouting that message are actually listening to it.
In short, they're preaching to the choir, because all the moderates who these people are trying to rally have begun to dismiss these people as 'gun-nuts' and have stopped listening. Then, when the time comes, when that moderate support is needed, people will just stay at home and ignore the panicked cries of the pro-gun lobby. I'm not saying that it'll happen tomorrow, or even in the next decade, but if this level of emotion continues, then it will only serve to disinterest the moderates who are, at the end of the day, the key ground to any victory in a war when both sides have equal numbers.

I'm past the point of joking around on this issue, and this issue past the point of making jokes.

I disagree, the issue has become a joke and the arguements repeated ad nauseum by the two extremes are simply laughable at this point.

[Ducimus]

Originally Posted by Oberon

Fair enough, I retract my previous statement, at least it's in the same thread. I just fail to see how this is much more than scaremongering....

If I thought that all was going on was scaremongering, I would not be nearly as serious about this issue.

Oberon, let me give you a hint as to how serious I think current events are. I'm 38 going on 39. In my lifetime I have only two recollections of voting or doing anything political. The first was while i was in freaking High School; and I graduated in 1992. The second was for George W bush's first election and that's only because my Mother made me go. Hell, she filled out everything, all I did was go down to the booth and punch the ticket how she wanted. I didn't read it any of it, and I didn't care to. She got two votes that year.

Now, in the last 4 months, on my own: I have contacted and wrote letters to both my senators and my representatives three times each, I joined a lobby group, donated money to said lobby group (and i'm a penny pincher from hell), attended a political rally, and re-registered to vote as an independent. Now, i'm sitting here chomping at the bit to get to a voting booth.

If I didn't think things were very serious, I wouldn't have gotten off my lazy ass.

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by Ducimus

If I didn't think things were very serious, I wouldn't have gotten off my lazy ass.

Alright, but why? Why do you think that this bill, in a nation that so fiercely clings to its right to bear arms, has a hope in hell of actually passing anytime this year?
I'm sure that if this issue goes on longer, which it will, then the chance of it passing will increase with each school massacre that takes place over the coming years. It's a quick and easy 'solution' to the problem and it's good for political points.
However, the more vocal the pro-gun crowd seem to get, the more they are dismissed as 'gun-nuts', a claim which is not helped by some of the rather misguided statements the NRA releases.

Personally I think you are fighting a losing battle which is dealt a serious blow every time some kid decides to run amok with a gun. However, it is your right, as given by the first amendment, to make that battle and that fight, and I support your right to do so. What I don't agree with though is the conspiracy theory that is put around by some of the more...entertaining...of the pro-gun lobby that this is just the first step towards a dictatorship that Obama is working on creating, and that he's going to appoint himself President for life, or some such nonsense.
Perhaps it is a first step on a road towards a more invasive government, but equally perhaps it is not, despite the claims that no guns = no freedom, I am quite free to do what I wish to do in this nation with its gun control laws. Admittedly if someone does pull a gun on me then I am stuck, but the likelihood of that happening only increases if you are in the wrong place at the wrong time. It is more likely that you would be stabbed anyway, but I digress.

In short, it is not easy for anyone who is not American to fully understand the argument in favour of guns from a nation that suffers from such terrible school massacres on a semi-frequent basis, it baffles us, but then we are not Americans and we do not have quite the same patriotic fervour that many Americans seem to, not since the 1800s anyway. So when an American makes the claim that his country, which enjoys freedoms and luxuries far greater than even some European nations, is turning into a dictatorship because of a gun control law, it confuses people who live in democratic countries with gun control laws and have relatively equal freedoms of expression.

I overreacted a little, perhaps, in posting that facepalm gif, although I've been dying to use that one ever since I discovered it on an obscure board, perhaps I should have waited until Yubba created another thread. I am certainly grateful of your consideration in keeping this within the same thread instead of pulling a Yubba and starting a whole new thread for it.
The thing is though, who was the video directed at, on this forum? As far as I can make out, those who are pro-gun would already be following the story, those who are anti-gun would automatically dismiss it as nonsense, and those who are neither would probably not even look at the thread, or dismiss both sides as lunatics.

Not a personal attack or anything, I'm just curious because of what I call the 'Chicken Little' effect, in that the longer a dire warning is stated and issued, the less effective it becomes, until eventually it actually starts having the opposite effect to that of which it was originally intended.

[Ducimus]

Originally Posted by Oberon

Alright, but why?

It's not just about guns. As I have explained before, what gets me fired up, is the larger picture.

First, there's the Patriot act. Controversial in it's own right, but by itself, not enough to get my "knickers in a twist". I certainly didn't give a crap when it went into law.

Second, there is the National Defense Authorization Act. Certain provisions (or lack thereof) within it are also controversial if not distressing. By itself, singly, not enough to get my "undies in a bunch", however, when looked at together with the Patriot act, is cause for concern. that i've posted before, does a pretty good job of explaining it, also citing official sources.

Third, the latest Gun control attempts. Looked at by itself, is cause for some concern, but not enough to get me jumping up and down. However, when looked at in context of the overall picture, put next to the patriot act and the NDAA, is cause for great concern.

The whole of the sum, is the politics of fear ever since 911. Our government has declared war against "terror", which is in effect a war without end. And in the process of fighting that war, our civil liberties have either been reinterpreted, or infringed upon in order to make us safer; and in so doing, our government gets bigger and more invasive as time goes on. It's like a domino effect, and it has to stop.


As an aside, It's my conjecture that unreasonable search's and seizures (see 4th amendment) is not far off if the current administration is successful with it's reinterpretation of the second amendment. News events within the last few weeks lend credence to that thought.

Originally Posted by Oberon

Alright, but why? Why do you think that this bill, in a nation that so fiercely clings to its right to bear arms, has a hope in hell of actually passing anytime this year?

Oberon I know you just like pushing buttons to have fun here but what you fail to take into account is this country is now being run by socialists who care nothing about our rights or the constitution of this country. they so outnumber those who still believe in our rights and the constitution that they can do whatever they want to do.

the voters of this country are bought and paid for with free phones, welfare, never ending unemployment checks, and lots of other government freebees so the votes to keep the democrats in office forever is bought and paid for. who would ever vote against someone who gives them free money?

if every single republican voted no every single time they could the socialist democrats could still pass any and everything they wanted to pass. our system of government ONLY works if there is equal representation on both sides so there are the checks and balances you spoke of to prevent one side from acting like dictators, sadly that no longer exists in this country so yes this can and very likely WILL be passed and one of the most important core fundamental rights we have as americans will be stripped from us.

[Tchocky]

Reality check, Webster.

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by Webster

Oberon I know you just like pushing buttons to have fun here but what you fail to take into account is this country is now being run by socialists who care nothing about our rights or the constitution of this country. they so outnumber those who still believe in our rights and the constitution that they can do whatever they want to do.

And equally, those socialists would say that the country is being run by fascist Republicans who haven't moved out of the 18th century and who are blocking any attempt by the US government to deal with its problems.

Which is it?

Depends on who you ask.

[August]

Originally Posted by Tchocky

Reality check, Webster.

Half of one third of government. You're not making much of a point here.

[Tchocky]

I'm not responding to much of a point either, August. And it's closer to 1/12th :P

if every single republican voted no every single time they could the socialist democrats could still pass any and everything they wanted to pass. our system of government ONLY works if there is equal representation on both sides so there are the checks and balances you spoke of to prevent one side from acting like dictators, sadly that no longer exists in this country so yes this can and very likely WILL be passed and one of the most important core fundamental rights we have as americans will be stripped from us.

This doesn't make any real sense. The last Congress was one of the least productive in American history, and the basic makeup has not changed. House still Republican-controlled, executive and Senate still Democratic. Does anyone expect the current Congress to be outrageously productive?

Does anyone really expect a sudden outbreak of revolutionary communism and a unilateral power grab by the Democratic Party in order to ban a few types of guns and limit magazine sizes?

Saying that "the socialists" are going to suddenly become dictators is ludicrous.

Oberon I know you just like pushing buttons to have fun here but what you fail to take into account is this country is now being run by socialists who care nothing about our rights or the constitution of this country. they so outnumber those who still believe in our rights and the constitution that they can do whatever they want to do.

The topic never fails to deliver more comedy.

[August]

This article pretty much defines why 2A supporters are upset:

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...utm_medium=RSS

This article pretty much defines why 2A supporters are upset:

So they are upset because stolen property is being siezed?

[Ducimus]

I think the percentage of gun owners in the country has gone up drastically.

(NRA News)

The numbers this guy is listing is staggering.

Originally Posted by Oberon

And equally, those socialists would say that the country is being run by fascist Republicans who haven't moved out of the 18th century and who are blocking any attempt by the US government to deal with its problems.

Which is it?

Depends on who you ask.

yes, both sides have equally strong held beliefs but the point I was trying to point out is that now, (unlike any other time in history) the system of checks and balances that keeps one party from unilaterally pushing its agenda without restriction has broken down.

the socialist democrats were a lot smarter then the republicans and they won by brainwashing children from a young age to not think for themselves (which defeats the entire foundation of the republicans idea of letting people figure things out for themselves) they also taught them to think that everything that is great about this country is something to be ashamed of and changed and they were very smart to realize as long as they keep the majority of the country dependent on government handouts then they will have everlasting power. I applaud them for that, they played the game very well and won because of it.

the republicans were stupid enough to think that people would think for themselves and would look for and see the truth for what it was but the indoctrinated youth only believes what they are told and never look to find out the truth for themselves because they don't care to make an effort.

the republicans brought all this upon themselves by stupidly thinking they don't have to counter the democrats lies and misrepresentations of the facts.

the dems won and the repubs lost and that's life, we have to live with it.

that's just the back story to why the checks and balances system got broken and now its more of a dictatorship then a republic that we live in.