Gun Control thread (merged many)

Um, Yubba, seen this?

[yubba]

I guess us wacked out Marines got some catching up to do,, you should be so proud. And Timmy didn't use a gun and as far as I know bombs are illegal...And me I have no need to harm anyone, but I will protect my self, I have that God given right.

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by TLAM Strike

He didn't just drop everything one day and shoot a bunch of people, you cut out an entire month between the time he visited psychiatrist Dr. Maurice Heatly and the murders.

From his July 31st suicide note referencing his March 29 visit to the University of Texas Health Center:
A full month before he killed a Doctor knew what he was planning but couldn't or wouldn't do anything.

From Dr. Maurice Heatly notes:

Dr. Heatly told him to make an appointment for next week or to stop by to talk at any time. That never happened, not the following week or the next two weeks after.

There is also evidence that Whitman was abusing drugs like the amphetamine Dexedrine and over the counter pain killers in the months leading to the shooting.

While a tumor may have cause Whitman's murders there were warning signs in the month(s) leading up to it.

So, who makes the call? A person confesses to having irrational thoughts possibly involving grievous bodily harm and/or murder, you can rope several thousand, if not hundreds of thousands of people into that box. Also the abuse of over the counter painkillers is something undertaken by many, many people, one or the other, or even both combined is not necessarily the signs of someone about to commit mass murder.
With the Doctor's quote that you mentioned there, was that quote taken before or after the mass-murder? Because you will notice that post-event many people will come out of the woodwork to state that the person who undertook the massacre was 'a bit odd', from either playing violent games, being a gun enthusiast, or listening to heavy metal music. It is quite possible that the Doctor only latched onto that sentence after the event when he came to realise the significance of it, at the time it was probably just noted and ignored.

Likewise, if one were to look strictly at the online blogs of Eric Harris and his 'rage against society' one would not have any major alarm bells ringing initially that would not also be put down to a young man going through a difficult stage of his life. In fact, on website statements alone one could probably select several members of this community out for concern that they may become a mass murderer. Obviously, as time went on, there were increasing warning signs from Harris and Klebold, however there is simply not the money or the manpower to read every online blog, to watch every troubled teen or young man, and only those who actually go to seek help are those who make it into the system, which at the moment from what I can tell in the writings post-Sandy Hook, is somewhat lacking in America because of a cutback which took place a while ago.

The fact is, unless you unleash the sort of 'big-brother' style monitoring system on America which pro-gun supporters seem determined to fight against, then you will not stop these sort of things happening because people will fall through the system, then they will get angry with the system, and then they will shoot at the system, taking out anyone who gets in the way, and usually they are young school-age people who see the school as 'part of the system' and thus target it.

So, what do you do? That's the Catch-22.

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by yubba

I guess us wacked out Marines got some catching up to do,, you should be so proud. And Timmy didn't use a gun and as far as I know bombs are illegal...And me I have no need to harm anyone, but I will protect my self, I have that God given right.

Repeatedly posting something does not make it true, Yubba.

http://www.examiner.com/article/the-...rats-is-a-myth

[yubba]

Originally Posted by Oberon

Repeatedly posting something does not make it true, Yubba.

http://www.examiner.com/article/the-...rats-is-a-myth

Then these guys didn't kill anybody, wow I'm so relieved, and I guess those freedom fighters didn't bring down the twin towers either,, at least that's what the liberal media are calling them and that's what they are teaching our kids in school... The media is now calling Islamic terrorist, freedom fighters, and illegal immigrants undocumented democrats. So what are you guys on the other side of the pond calling what happened in Cyprus ????? I call it theft, so not talking about it doesn't mean it never happened. Can you say Islamic Terrorist ?????

Repeatedly posting something does not make it true, Yubba.

Oberon, didn't you think the white supremacist shooting Indians was a bit of a giveaway about the credibility of yubbas chain e-mail claim(or was it direct from Alex Jones this time?)

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by Tribesman

Oberon, didn't you think the white supremacist shooting Indians was a bit of a giveaway about the credibility of yubbas chain e-mail claim(or was it direct from Alex Jones this time?)

I know, I know, but sometimes I have to stop laughing at him and try and point out the fallacy in his right-wing chain mail copy-pastes, it never gets me anywhere but it passes the time.

[Jimbuna]

Time can be 'of the essence'.

[Oberon]

Alright, let's break this one down, bit by bit.

Originally Posted by yubba

Then these guys didn't kill anybody, wow I'm so relieved,

Sure, they killed people, but your nice little bit of propaganda makes a false claim about their political preferences.

and I guess those freedom fighters didn't bring down the twin towers either,,

Maktab al-Khidamat, look it up. You had no problem calling them 'Freedom fighters' when they fought against the Soviets, strange that.

at least that's what the liberal media are calling them and that's what they are teaching our kids in school...

I was unaware that the United States of America had only one school that its entire population went to. Texas really is the center of the US then.

The media is now calling Islamic terrorist, freedom fighters,

Care to share a link about a US based MEDIA outlet calling a 'terrorist' a 'freedom fighter'?

and illegal immigrants undocumented democrats.

The only person in the US media who is calling them that are Jay Leno and Rush Limbaugh, Associated Press has stated that it will no longer use the term 'illegal immigrant', it was Jay Leno that suggested that they be called 'Undocumented democrats', are you calling Jay Leno the only media outlet of America?

So what are you guys on the other side of the pond calling what happened in Cyprus ?????

Not relevant to a thread on gun infographics.

I call it theft, so not talking about it doesn't mean it never happened. Can you say Islamic Terrorist ?????

Not as well as you it would seem.

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by Jimbuna

Time can be 'of the essence'.

Thinking of calling time already Jim? I don't blame you, let me know when you ring last orders and mine'll be an Old Speckled Hen.

[CaptainMattJ.]

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/the-texas-sharpshooter

Sinful infographic. weak argument.

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by CaptainMattJ.

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/the-texas-sharpshooter

Sinful infographic. weak argument.

I like that website.

[TLAM Strike]

Originally Posted by Oberon

With the Doctor's quote that you mentioned there, was that quote taken before or after the mass-murder? Because you will notice that post-event many people will come out of the woodwork to state that the person who undertook the massacre was 'a bit odd', from either playing violent games, being a gun enthusiast, or listening to heavy metal music. It is quite possible that the Doctor only latched onto that sentence after the event when he came to realise the significance of it, at the time it was probably just noted and ignored.

That quote was from the notes Dr. Heatly made of that session before the murders, typewritten and dated March 29, 1966.

You can read them in their entirety here:
http://alt.cimedia.com/statesman/spe...an/heatley.pdf

There is a real difference between listening to heavy metal or playing Doom and what Whitman said. He admitted to hitting his wife, thinking about killing people and would exhibit mood swings mid sentence. Mass-murderer or not that is at least a man who needs help. All he got was "make an appointment", that is a failure right there.

Likewise, if one were to look strictly at the online blogs of Eric Harris and his 'rage against society' one would not have any major alarm bells ringing initially that would not also be put down to a young man going through a difficult stage of his life. In fact, on website statements alone one could probably select several members of this community out for concern that they may become a mass murderer. Obviously, as time went on, there were increasing warning signs from Harris and Klebold, however there is simply not the money or the manpower to read every online blog, to watch every troubled teen or young man, and only those who actually go to seek help are those who make it into the system, which at the moment from what I can tell in the writings post-Sandy Hook, is somewhat lacking in America because of a cutback which took place a while ago.

The fact is, unless you unleash the sort of 'big-brother' style monitoring system on America which pro-gun supporters seem determined to fight against, then you will not stop these sort of things happening because people will fall through the system, then they will get angry with the system, and then they will shoot at the system, taking out anyone who gets in the way, and usually they are young school-age people who see the school as 'part of the system' and thus target it.

So, what do you do? That's the Catch-22.

Well the VA has recently put a huge emphasis on mental health. Every time you call them you get reminded that if you are feeling like you might hurt yourself or someone else to talk to them. They bombard you with pamphlets, gun locks and refrigerator magnets:


You are right about cutbacks. The VA tends to have a budget to do this since Vets have some clout with the politicians. Students (which Whitman was one after all) don't have that kind of clout, they don't have much of a lobby. Students at all levels are not getting any health education not just mental. Students provide an interesting case for the government, you can force them to do stuff (really ask any kid if he wants to go to school), but there is very little in requirements to learn about their mental health. When I went though school we learned the whole score of black history about three times, about how to put a rubber on our junk five or six times (once was in a into to business vocational class... seriously), but never that if we are thinking about hurting someone to go talk to a professional.

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by TLAM Strike

That quote was from the notes Dr. Heatly made of that session before the murders, typewritten and dated March 29, 1966.

You can read them in their entirety here:
http://alt.cimedia.com/statesman/spe...an/heatley.pdf

There is a real difference between listening to heavy metal or playing Doom and what Whitman said. He admitted to hitting his wife, thinking about killing people and would exhibit mood swings mid sentence. Mass-murderer or not that is at least a man who needs help. All he got was "make an appointment", that is a failure right there.

Well the VA has recently put a huge emphasis on mental health. Every time you call them you get reminded that if you are feeling like you might hurt yourself or someone else to talk to them. They bombard you with pamphlets, gun locks and refrigerator magnets:


You are right about cutbacks. The VA tends to have a budget to do this since Vets have some clout with the politicians. Students (which Whitman was one after all) don't have that kind of clout, they don't have much of a lobby. Students at all levels are not getting any health education not just mental. Students provide an interesting case for the government, you can force them to do stuff (really ask any kid if he wants to go to school), but there is very little in requirements to learn about their mental health. When I went though school we learned the whole score of black history about three times, about how to put a rubber on our junk five or six times (once was in a into to business vocational class... seriously), but never that if we are thinking about hurting someone to go talk to a professional.

Good points, and I'm glad to see the VA is doing something about it, but there definitely needs to be some sort of similar service for students, however the trouble is when things like this are implemented they do tend to go over the top, so it'd probably end up with every student getting a psyche evaluation before morning assembly. However, something does need to be done about it, in a sensible manner, instead of this crazed knee-jerk responses that seem to be in vogue on both sides at the moment.

In regards to Whitman, that's a good point, and well put and I concede that the system certainly did fail him, although I honestly think that there are other Whitmans out there who slip through the system because the warning flags don't trigger correctly, however in terms of Veterans, I'm glad to see that there is a stronger focus on it which probably explains why we haven't had a modern Whitman for a while, despite the occasional shoot-outs at bases which are harder to stop because it's inner service and as a part of the service looking towards a counsellor would be looked down upon by both fellow servicemen and many higher ups because of the ethos that you've got to 'man up and put up' that has remained within the service over the years, which to some extent is true but then you've got those who can't do that but are still good soldiers and it all falls apart a little.
Students, on the other hand, yes, they are much less monitored, and I can see that your sexual health classes are not that dissimilar to ours, and yet it does sod all to stop teenage pregnancies but if a similar sort of energy could be put into helping troubled people in a time which is extremely difficult for people who do not fit into a specific frame in school and suffer because of it.
Reminds me of the song done by P.O.D called 'Youth of the Nation', listening to it makes you think and fear for the youth of today and tomorrow.

[yubba]

Undocumented democrats was an error on my part,, the media is not calling them that I know,, I playgerized Rush and I'm deeply sorry can you forgive me I'm so polilically incorrect,,,So what are they calling them now,,???? And after all of this,, all you got is one Marine that did a mass shooting back in 1966.,,wow you rock . So are they still calling the Ft Hood Shooting a work place inceident,,?????