NYGM and GW - Ship Damage FAQ

[GlobalExplorer]

Originally Posted by Der Teddy Bar

NYGM tested extensively for distance and attaining credit. In all cases we always got credit when the ship sank, that is when the ship sunk.

It is a simple test to perform. Set up a single mission, set the ship to sink very very slowly, torpedo it and d0 a runner while staying in the F12 external view with the ship.

Without doing any extensive testing, I must disagree.

I have only played two patrols, and some test runs torpedoing static ships in La Spezia I had:
- a T3 blown up and sunk - I saw it blow up with my own eyes, just a few hundred meters away - and no credit given
- a C3 completely disappeared from convoy, almost definitely sunk, about one hour after torpedoeing - no credit given

I did not:
-reload or anything (I had other sinkings not credted after reloading but I know this a bug)

I might have done a save in between - but not reload - is this forbidden too?

Originally Posted by JScones

Perhaps the problems stem from players still having the SH3 mindset. That is, plough in torps until instant kaboom. I find that I still use roughly the same number of torpedoes as I did with stock SH3 (but aim more wisely) and whilst I don't (always) get the instant indication of a sinking, I usually still end up with the sinking some while later.

Concerning my initial statement, I must say that at first I did not know how to aim at special sections of the ships, so this statement is true to some extent. But I have tested again with docked ships in LaSpezia, and this time I aimed perfectly.

NOTE: I believe that my problems might be a particular problem of sinking tankers in ports, because the hull will settle on the ground and not sink. But here are the facts.

Attack on docked T2 Tanker from 500-800 m AOB ~90deg:

>two torps in the two bow sections - bow sinks, but ship not sunk
>another two torps the two stern sections - nothing happens except small fire. Stern doesnt even sink.
>a fifth torpedo in the middle - fire goes off and ship is destroyed - out of hitpoints

All torps were set to 11m depth, magnetic impact, and all hit different parts of the ship. I use time compression between torps to see effects of hits.

As said before, I use GW1.1.

And yes, I had other ships which sank fine.

The german destroyers still have the old damage model right? They usually blew up from one torp.

[Der Teddy Bar]

Originally Posted by GlobalExplorer

Without doing any extensive testing, I must disagree.

I have only played two patrols, and some test runs torpedoing static ships in La Spezia I had:
- a T3 blown up and sunk - I saw it blow up with my own eyes, just a few hundred meters away - and no credit given

So what does this have to do with NYGM?

Originally Posted by GlobalExplorer

a C3 completely disappeared from convoy, almost definitely sunk, about one hour after torpedoeing - no credit given

The "almost definitely sunk" I think sums it up nicely...

Originally Posted by GlobalExplorer

I did not:
-reload or anything (I had other sinkings not credted after reloading but I know this a bug)

I might have done a save in between - but not reload - is this forbidden too?

Never caused me any issues.....

Originally Posted by GlobalExplorer

NOTE: I believe that my problems might be a particular problem of sinking tankers in ports, because the hull will settle on the ground and not sink.

The 'when' a ship is sunk is still a mystery to me in so far as I have had AG124's Park ship during tests listed as sunk before any part of the deck has been tounched by water and at other times have had the same ship, with the same values when hit in a different location being 2/3rds under the water before being listed as sunk.

There is little NYGM can do about this

Originally Posted by GlobalExplorer

But here are the facts.

Attack on docked T2 Tanker from 500-800 m AOB ~90deg:

>two torps in the two bow sections - bow sinks, but ship not sunk
>another two torps the two stern sections - nothing happens except small fire. Stern doesnt even sink.
>a fifth torpedo in the middle - fire goes off and ship is destroyed - out of hitpoints

All torps were set to 11m depth, magnetic impact, and all hit different parts of the ship. I use time compression between torps to see effects of hits.

I have not seen how many HP's the GW ship has. If it uses the NYGM Ship Damage Mod file then it would require 12 torpedoes to run out of HP's.

Originally Posted by GlobalExplorer

As said before, I use GW1.1.

And yes, I had other ships which sank fine.

The german destroyers still have the old damage model right? They usually blew up from one torp.

Yes the German ships have not had thier HP raised in the NYGM SD Mod, however they still by default use the NYGM SD values as that is how the game works.


It is obvious that the NYGM Ship Damage Mod is far from perfect, I am not trying to say that it is. Never have, never will.

But as I have always stated... "within the limitations of the SHIII Damage Engine"

[Der Teddy Bar]

Originally Posted by Keelbuster

Now, from these Liberty values - does this mean that any compartment can result in the sinking of the ship?

Yes, this goes for every ship.

Originally Posted by Keelbuster

Sorry to noob out on this...i thought that any compromised compartment would flood _completely_ .
Thus, cargo 1, 2, or 3 could result in the sinking of liberty?

Yes, any compartment that is damaged past the Critic Flatation level will flood to 100%.

A ship will only of the Flotability= exceeds what is required to make the ship sink

Originally Posted by Keelbuster

Or are these values the buoyancy (flotability) of the whole ship?

I'm pretty sure (with NYGM TW 1.1) I've clobbered a cracked open a cargo hold, and waited for it to fill with water (e.g. 3 hrs later) bu the ship will stay afloat.

Because the Flotibilty= for that compartment did not meet the required value to sink the ship.


Now I have to say again, ALL of this is explained to the end degree in the NYGM user manual.


Cheers,

Teddy

[GlobalExplorer]

Originally Posted by Der Teddy Bar

So what does this have to do with NYGM?

The "almost definitely sunk" I think sums it up nicely...

I don't know if it's just me, but I think you take any criticism on your mod personal. It is a fantastic concept, already works to a great degree, and we all want you to succeed. I post these things that you seem to not know, because you claimed that it's not possible that credit for sunken ships is not given. Yet I have seen two ships sink and not being given credit, and I there is little chance that I dreamed it up. And this was only in the space of a few patrols and test runs, so it should happen all the time.

I don't know why you are trying to read between the lines to prove that the mistake was on my side, not on the mods.

If I am getting at your nerves, and I think I do, just let me know, and I will not post any more experiences with NYGM. Your mod is cool, and I think you will succeed with V2, but I know what I've seen and I've seen that the current version is not working for me (yet).

[Der Teddy Bar]

Originally Posted by GlobalExplorer

I don't know if it's just me, but I think you take any criticism on your mod personal.

If I did I would have left a long time ago.

Originally Posted by GlobalExplorer

I post these things that you seem to not know, because you claimed that it's not possible that credit for sunken ships is not given. Yet I have seen two ships sink and not being given credit, and I there is little chance that I dreamed it up. And this was only in the space of a few patrols and test runs, so it should happen all the time.

In the first instance it was a SHIII issue and not a NYGM issue, as I said, what is that to do with NYGM? A Ship going BOOM and no credit is the game. NYGM did nothing more than massage the figures, we made no code changes.

And as afar as the ship should have sunk, well... you have not shown me any credible evidence that you were not credited when a ship sank.

Originally Posted by GlobalExplorer

I don't know why you are trying to read between the lines to prove that the mistake was on my side, not on the mods.

If I am getting at your nerves, and I think I do, just let me know, and I will not post any more experiences with NYGM. Your mod is cool, and I think you will succeed with V2, but I know what I've seen and I've seen that the current version is not working for me (yet).

As far as me reading between the lines, it is simply that you want me to agree and I have not.

It appears to me that you have made your mind up and that is it. The fact that mine and many others experiences are different does not matter to you. If you want a one sided discussion fine, but address your posts to someone else.

If you want to discuss, i.e. where I don't have to agree with you but can still respect your opinion, the NYGM SD V1 with me, I am more than happy to do so, but as long as you have read the read me file and have understood it.

I keep saying read the read me file as I am certain that I explained the process, the issues, the compromises, the warts and all of the NYGM SD Mod.

I have openly admitted the faults of the NYGM Ship Damage Mod from before it was released, I made it clear in the read me file, I have posted it numerous times.

I think the best idea is to remove the NYGM Ship Damage mod all together.

[GlobalExplorer]

Originally Posted by Der Teddy Bar

If I did I would have left a long time ago.

In the first instance it was a SHIII issue and not a NYGM issue, as I said, what is that to do with NYGM? A Ship going BOOM and no credit is the game. NYGM did nothing more than massage the figures, we made no code changes.

And as afar as the ship should have sunk, well... you have not shown me any credible evidence that you were not credited when a ship sank.

As far as me reading between the lines, it is simply that you want me to agree and I have not.

It appears to me that you have made your mind up and that is it. The fact that mine and many others experiences are different does not matter to you. If you want a one sided discussion fine, but address your posts to someone else.

If you want to discuss, i.e. where I don't have to agree with you but can still respect your opinion, the NYGM SD V1 with me, I am more than happy to do so, but as long as you have read the read me file and have understood it.

I keep saying read the read me file as I am certain that I explained the process, the issues, the compromises, the warts and all of the NYGM SD Mod.

I have openly admitted the faults of the NYGM Ship Damage Mod from before it was released, I made it clear in the read me file, I have posted it numerous times.

I think the best idea is to remove the NYGM Ship Damage mod all together.

EDIT: I have edited this message after the "éclat".

I think we should all check the tone we are talking with each other

I am directing this to myself as much as to DTB or anybody else.

I am not thinking about uninstalling anything - NYGM will hopefully stay with me for a long time - and I will continue to support fine mod efforts like this.

This is a very complex mod, so it probably needs a longer testing period before it is working in a satisfying way. So the little problems some people are having are anything but unexpected.

I suggest the TW team find someone who can rewrite the documentation, to more simply and comprehensibly point out the problems and requirements of the sinking mod.

GE

[Ducimus]

I just intergrated this damage model for ships into my own "home brew" mod package last night and i really got to hand it to the NYGM. Well done. This mod really puts some of the zest back into SH3 for me. The unrealistic tonnage you could reap before always bugged me in more ways then i care to list, so this really put back my enthusiasm to sink ships. My only complaint is wondering why i didnt try this mod earlier.

[Der Teddy Bar]

Originally Posted by Ducimus

I just intergrated this damage model for ships into my own "home brew" mod package last night and i really got to hand it to the NYGM. Well done. This mod really puts some of the zest back into SH3 for me. The unrealistic tonnage you could reap before always bugged me in more ways then i care to list, so this really put back my enthusiasm to sink ships.

Thank you for the feedback and I am glad that a critical old salt such as yourself can find new life in this great game.

Originally Posted by Ducimus

My only complaint is wondering why i didnt try this mod earlier.

Hmmm, missed the threads :rotfl:

May I suggest that you consider our Sensor updates at a slightly quicker pace

[boshunter]

gotta love ur mod...
i actually gave up on sh3 since i was expecting more when i got it months ago, but with ur mod it made the game alot better than before and give me reason to play it =)


i think i am lucky so far.. take avg 2.5 to take out a large tanker/cargo
but i did have some problem with the escorts...
if i hit the DD at the stern or the bow they usually go down within an hour
when it hit in the center/engine room area
it doesn't even sink it would just stay dead in the water and doesn't look like it is flooding at all
i stay on external to watch it for 4-5 hours...
it have happen a around 3 times
first 2 times was c-class, and the last one was a tribal
i set the depth of my torp to be 5meters

once again thank you for all the hard work you have put in..

[Ducimus]

Ok i have to ask, what exactly did NYGM do to these ships besides make them sink by flooding?

1.) Draft is off. (or was there an updated RecManual that i forgot to use? ) I set up a perfect 90 shot on Large tanker (aka T3), and watched my fish sail clean under it at 13 meters and not detonate under whats supposed to be a 12 meter draft.

2.) Gunners on these ships seem alot more accurate then i recall them being.

3.) WHere's the cargo? Decks are empty.

[CCIP]

Points 1 and 3 are intentional I believe. The draft is to help throw off the clearly over-effective magnetics, and the cargo... Teddy thought that it's far too unrealistic for all the ships to have so much on decks, so he took it off most of them.

As for 2 - eh? I always saw the opposite with NYGM. :hmm:

[Der Teddy Bar]

Originally Posted by Ducimus

Ok i have to ask, what exactly did NYGM do to these ships besides make them sink by flooding?

Draft is off. (or was there an updated RecManual that i forgot to use? ) I set up a perfect 90 shot on Large tanker (aka T3), and watched my fish sail clean under it at 13 meters and not detonate under whats supposed to be a 12 meter draft.

On the Large Tanker the manual states that the draft is 10.7 metres and in game testing, using torpedo as a depth guage, has shown that the depth of the large tanker is correct as per tha manual.

All magentic torpedos exploded under the ship when set to exactly 13 metres.

Of course all tests were concucted in 0mps conditions.

[Ducimus]

Originally Posted by Der Teddy Bar

On the Large Tanker the manual states that the draft is 10.7 metres and in game testing, using torpedo as a depth guage, has shown that the depth of the large tanker is correct as per tha manual.

All magentic torpedos exploded under the ship when set to exactly 13 metres.

Of course all tests were concucted in 0mps conditions.

edit: eehh nevermind about that rec manual, i forgot all that was there is TGA for country flags. Maybe it was a C3 cargo i was thinking of. But i remember SPECIFICALLY the rec manual said 12 meter draft and those fish went under it by a wide margine. At a 6-7 meter wind at the time, the draft couldnt have changed that much.

edit:

Originally Posted by CCIP

, and the cargo... Teddy thought that it's far too unrealistic for all the ships to have so much on decks, so he took it off most of them.

If you want, i can quote passages from the book "Steel boat, Iron Hearts" where Hans grueber specifically states about planes floating in the water after they torpedo'ed a ship. That means they were strapped onto the deck. I want to say he mentioned other cargo to, but i can't say for sure, id ahve to reread a few chapters to find where i get that.