Destroyers Discussion (getting rid of pin point drops)

[CB..]

well im back to my original situation again---all the DD's are basically dumb unless you get so close to them that they can't avoid detecting you--

it really does seem to be a case of reduce the radar range and the whole kit and kaboodle dies along with it---if that's the case then it looks very poor indeed for any possible genuine soloution-
as you guys are saying even tho you are having the opposite problem from me generaly (ie too many uber DD's) - unlesss you provoke them the DD's don't detect you- and that is no matter what happens next useless gameplay wise--if you can be sure of avoiding detection by remaining at slow and silent running and the DD's only become dangerous once they HAVE detected you - then why should you want them to detect you? (because this is a game of course! and if they don't detect you then there is no game) so that's the real problem-- if you have to deliberately provoke the DD's into attacking you then things aren't working well

i have one set up that works reasonably well---with normal radar-- if i reduce the range of the radar- even tho it plays no part in the mission at all (ie i approach submeged - attack submerged and leave submerged) the AI is useless-

not good not good at all
ye gawds i thought SH2 DD AI was irritating but this is rediculous

i bl**dy tempted to just give the merchants hydrophones and be done with it - let them detect the sub and wake the DD's- that's if they can be bothered to tell the DD's they've detected a sub

[Kaleunt]

About range, one thing can be said: in SHIII the active sonar range
is greater than their real counterpart. Another point is that the sonars modeled in game are an extropalation of the real equipement. As far io have understood from 1939 to 42 the ASDIC was of "searchlight" type
with only a 16° angle of elevation and a range of 2500yards from the mid-42 to the end of the war the "searchlight" type was backed by a "Q" type the two systems working together the Q type had a max range of 1200
yards and an angle of elevation of 65°. Don't forget that the "Searchlight"
type and the Q type could be trained to 360° horizontaly. The 147 backed the preceding two systems later in the war it was specialy designed to track deep submarines and had a range of 1000 yards.
In game the "searchlight" type is made as a brtish system represented
by the 123 A ,128 A, 144 A ( A for active) and the Q type is exclusively an US equipement. ALL have the same generic capacities wich have nothing to do with the real sonars only the range of detection are modified to show an upgrade of the allied sonars as long as the conflict progress.
The type 147 in game has nothing to do with the real one.
It's really a shame to see this state of things in a sim.
But now i am right now testing my theory about the angle of elevation
having given to the active sonar an min elevation of
135° and max elevation of 180° in the first test the DD pinged my sub
but lost me at my vertical. The angular values need to adjusted to be more in line with the real life.

[Redwine]

Originally Posted by CB..

well im back to my original situation again---all the DD's are basically dumb unless you get so close to them that they can't avoid detecting you--

unlesss you provoke them the DD's don't detect you- and that is no matter what happens next useless gameplay wise--if you can be sure of avoiding detection by remaining at slow and silent running and the DD's only become dangerous once they HAVE detected you -

I was having the same problem CB, i found a set of settings wich let you hardly survive the U-505 afetr they detect you...all five DDs.

But i need to provoque them to attack me.

I note is imposible for them to detect me if they are cruising above the Speedfactor speed value, make sure they are running under this value. If not increase value.

Noise factor, if the value is too high, i think so its own proppellers dont let them to haer you.

[caspofungin]

frig. disregard everything i've said about beam geometry in the test mission. it's more limited than the stock, but i'm not sure if reaches past 90 degrees on the escort's beam.

@kaleunt
mostly right. searchlight sonars (type 123,128) in my test setup have a beam from 90-116, i appreciate thats a difference of 26 deg but it's still more limited than stock, and from my reading the sonars were all mounted w/ a slight downward angle anyway. i've tried to approximate range/angles of the british sonars. don't have any info re us sonars, or either nations passive systems.

wrt the active sonar range being greater than irl -- well, i've never been able to get pinged at greater than 1400m. what are your current settings?

[CB..]

Originally Posted by Redwine

I was having the same problem CB, i found a set of settings wich let you hardly survive the U-505 afetr they detect you...all five DDs.

But i need to provoque them to attack me.

I note is imposible for them to detect me if they are cruising above the Speedfactor speed value, make sure they are running under this value. If not increase value.

Noise factor, if the value is too high, i think so its own proppellers dont let them to haer you.

for me all the available settings become fairly non effective once i lower the radar effectiveness--
i got frustrated and decided to really see just how useless the DD's could actually be---

so i set all the AI and various DD hydrophone ranges to 40,000 metres - yes that's 40,000 metres!!! LOL!

with the only limitation being i allso set the minimum ranges to 100 metres--- to create a definite blind spot immediately around and below the DD ( a cone or tube of dead water around the DD -- forcing them to re-aquire contact after each pass)

a limited contact time

[AI detection]
Lost contact time=5 ;[min]

and these sonar sim.cfg settings (stock sonar set up in the ai-sensors .dat)

[Sonar]
Detection time=5 ;[s]
Sensitivity=0.03 ;(0..1)
Waves factor=0.5 ;[>=0]
Speed factor=15 ;[kt]
Enemy surface factor=200 ;[m2]
Lose time=2


i went looking for a convoy to attack but the first one evaded me at the last moment vanishing allmost from under my nose-- (it changed course and i didn't dive to keep tabs on it lol)

and the second convoy i went for escaped as i was obliterated by an aircraft just as it came in sight lol (arghhh!!! can see why you guys use set missions sometimes lol)

but then i got jumped by a hunter killer group on the third attempt after re starting the patrol ( at night)


these DD's had hydrophones with a maximum range of 40,000 metres remember-- i got a radar signals detected warning and dived - i was at flank- and immediately got the we have been detected message--(the DD's were probably around 8,000 metres away (remember i reduced the range of the radar)

and they came steaming over to investigate-- i was at silent running pretty quickly so it was only as they got near and starting pinging that they found me---( their hydrophones still only detected me when i went to ahead 1/13 or standard-- which you tend to do to avoid the DC drops-- so it forced me to take lots of risks)

after some pretty scary barrages all of which were very close indeed ( i lost two crew in the attack- and had to deal with some minor flooding and damage)

it was probably only the lost contact time entry in the sim.cfg that saved me--

and i don't mind that -

just shows how odd the whole set up is--

but i reccomend using the minimum range settings in the ai-sensors.dat to create the blind spot around the DD AND controling the length of the attack with the lost contact time--

if you can get it right you might be able to use their blind spot to shake them off---and giving them uber hydrophones doesn't seem to make them impossible to shake

come to think of it--if the u-boats had hydrophones that could detect merchants at well out side visual range- there's no reason to suspect that the DD's hydrophones were any weaker--it's just that the sound of a sub is no where near as easy to hear as a merchant-- so with the DD hydrophone it isn't a matter of 40,000 metres being un-realistic- more a case that at that range a sub would be impossible to hear anyway--
sooo having said all that ; there is the noise setting to balance that out--

actually there isn't really a maximum range to hydrophones-- if some one exploded a NUKE in the sea 120 nautical miles away you can bet your hydrophone guy would hear it- it's just a case of can you hear a sub at that range?
so the hydrophones as written are innaccurate- and a cop out-- give them un-limited range and it won't make the subs screws any louder- as i've shown above- so there's room for some thought there

i still say that uber hydrophones and crap sonar are going to give the best gameplay- control that with the lost contact time give the DD's a sizable blindspot and maybe just maybe the gameplay will come alive - if not i'm going to hacksaw my leg off and eat it

[Txema]

frig. disregard everything i've said about beam geometry in the test mission. it's more limited than the stock, but i'm not sure if reaches past 90 degrees on the escort's beam.

Could you please explain this further? I can not understand what you are referring to...


Txema

[caspofungin]

searchlight sonar is supposed to have a 360 degree sweep around an escort, limited only by the "baffles" -- the area of turbulent water/prop wash that sensors can't penetrate. effectively, an escort should be blind behind itself. the settings i'm playing with have the sonar beam reach 150 degrees either side of the escort. nevertheless, in game, it only uses sonar out to 90 degrees.

within a certain distance at a given depth, sonar can't pick you up -- because the width/height of the beam is limited, you can effectively dive under it. the deeper you are, the further away from the escort will be the dead zone. irl, searchlight sonar (types 123, 128) had a beam 16degrees top-to-bottom, which i'm trying to emulate. i'm not sure its working, though.

i think all the issues are down to how the dev's implemented the use of 2 sensors that should complement each other -- radar/visual and sonar/hydrophones. tweaking one always has an effect on the other.

[Txema]

searchlight sonar is supposed to have a 360 degree sweep around an escort, limited only by the "baffles" -- the area of turbulent water/prop wash that sensors can't penetrate. effectively, an escort should be blind behind itself. the settings i'm playing with have the sonar beam reach 150 degrees either side of the escort. nevertheless, in game, it only uses sonar out to 90 degrees.

http://www.uboat.net/allies/technical/asdic.htm

The search pattern

During screening operations the ASDIC operator searched through an arc of roughly 45 degrees each side of the base course of the vessel. The ASDIC had to be stopped at regular intervals on this arc long enough to allow the relatively slow underwater sound waves to return should they locate a submerged target. Normally the head would be stopped on a bearing and a sound pulse would be transmitted, which would be heard as a "ping" noise. If no echo was received after several seconds the head would be rotated a few degrees (usually 5) and the process repeated throughout the watch.

*************************************************

So it seems that searchlight sonar did not have a 360 degree sweep around an escort... It had only a limited sweep as implemented in SH3.


Txema

[caspofungin]

check the links on page 1 of this thread -- types 123, 128, and 144 sonars had a 360 degree sweep, documented from several sources. which isn't implemented. like so many other things

[CB..]

:hmm: what might be interesting would be to set the minimum range for the hydrophones to the same distance as the maximum range for the sonar-- or similar

as most times when a DD is that close in combat situations he's dropping DC's-- and there doesn't really seem to be any dead time after a DC explosion (you frequently get the we've been detected message within seconds of a DC explosion if your still at flank trying to manevuer)

i'm going to carry on testing the 40,000 metre max hydrophone range
as it clearly DOESN'T mean you get detected at 40,000 metres whilst submerged -no matter what speed your going- what it does mean is that as you get closer you have to start moderating your speed untill at around 5,000 metres anything above 1/3rd will give you away--any closer than that and you need to be at dead slow and silent running to remain undetected--and at around 1000 metres your going to get detected if the DD is on the ball no matter what you do- un less your very deep anyway or use-ing the merchants to mask your screws etc etc-

i just got clobbered trying to sneak past the DD screen on a convoy -- but if i had positioned my self better i would have made it thru to the merchants undetected --and that's reasonable - i'll have to wait and see if they investigate the torping of any merchants next time i succeed in getting thru ( LOL)

anyhuw having a hard coded "cut off" range for the hydrophones doesn't make sense -- contacts must get quieter and quieter untill they get lost alto-gether-- rather than the thing just going dead, like switching off a light

anybody here remember playing destroyer command? using the hydrophones in that game for example-- you lose the contact when you can no longer distinguish it from the background noise-- remove the back ground noise and of course you can hear it again at a much greater range

doubling the range of your hydrophones doesn't make the background noise any less---and so on--do the same thing in your SH3 hydrophone room ( remove the ambient and internal engine noises and all of a sudden you can hear ships an insane distance away---the reason why you can't hear them with the back ground noise as is is not because the screw sounds aren't being reproduced- it's because you can't hear them over the ambient and internal engine noises the game plays at the same time--)

if we are going to get the best out of the DD's then we need to give them full range hydrophones and let the same limitations that affect the players hydrophones control the detection rate - rather than slapping a concrete range limitation on them ( it's unneccesary and a bit redicolous as the game deals with the issue in a dynamic way when left to the back ground sea noise to mask the screws at distance--it does this very well and we can control it precisely via the noise setting if there's any uber problems as a result)
the pin point DC drops come from the active sonar-- that's where you guys can use the stuff your looking into to make it more human

we can roughly state that we want to be DC'd as a normal part of the gameplay-- but the DD has to find you first- and that needs to happen naturally with out you provoking it- that's where the hydrophones come into it--and why i'm concentrating on them--
i'm still running completely stock sonar (other than some sim.cfg alterations mainly regarding the lose time) if i change anything for myself it will be increasing the minimum range to generate a blind spot

[caspofungin]

what ranges are you guys getting pinged at? the max i can get is about 1200-1400m despite various sensitivity and range tweaks/nerfs.

also, there seems to be some sort of dichotomy wrt sensors. even with broad ranges of elevation and bearing, i only ever get pinged w/ active sonar if i'm in front of the escort, and only get heard w/ hydrophones if i'm behind him. never the other way round. something hardcoded? or is it just my own ineptitude?

[caspofungin]

cb, that's a sweet idea -- extending hydrophone range outside of the active sonar sensor "sphere".

my only question is... well, better to describe something similar.

if you are approached by an escort that's equipped w/ radar, while he's far away and out of sight, you get a rwr message (radar signals detected) and a bearing line. as soon as he's in range, the line goes away, and "plotting" is done by vision. how do you determine which sensor has priority -- asdic or hydrophone? i'm not explaining myself clearly.

anyway, it's a great thought. will try it out tomorrow. good luck w/ your work.

[CB..]

Originally Posted by caspofungin

what ranges are you guys getting pinged at? the max i can get is about 1200-1400m despite various sensitivity and range tweaks/nerfs.

about the same here-- tho occasionally i get pinged at much longer ranges - i'm not sure quite what's going on when that happens--

doesn't seem to matter what angle the DD's at tho for sonar or hydrophones but as they are often circling like sharks when it happens it's hard to tell

[CB..]

Originally Posted by caspofungin

cb, that's a sweet idea -- extending hydrophone range outside of the active sonar sensor "sphere".

my only question is... well, better to describe something similar.

if you are approached by an escort that's equipped w/ radar, while he's far away and out of sight, you get a rwr message (radar signals detected) and a bearing line. as soon as he's in range, the line goes away, and "plotting" is done by vision. how do you determine which sensor has priority -- asdic or hydrophone? i'm not explaining myself clearly.

anyway, it's a great thought. will try it out tomorrow. good luck w/ your work.

cheers i reckon it depends on what you do in response -- if you dive it will steam over to you last known position and start doing hydrophone scans as it closes and slows down - once it's got some sort of hydrophone reading on you it will position it self for an attack run and start pinging you with asdic-- perhaps the priority is based on the approximate range from target?
some thing that does confuse me tho is how reliable the "we've been detected" message is? often a DD will approach and start pinging then attack even tho there's not been any warning of detection- makes me think that the asdic is actually more effective than the hydrophones even at medium range? if so that would explain things perhaps--they seem to use the asdic as a sort of uber hydrophone sometimes

[Redwine]

Originally Posted by CB..

:
we can roughly state that we want to be DC'd as a normal part of the gameplay-- but the DD has to find you first- and that needs to happen naturally with out you provoking it- that's where the hydrophones come into it--and why i'm concentrating on them--

Provoking is needed when they are cruising above the "Speed factor" value.

If they are cruising at 24 knots, and pasive sensor has a Speed factor of 15 or 20, they do not hear you.

If they do not hear you on pasive sensor, do not switch on active one.
Then they need a "trigger" as you called, as in example a radar or visual detection.

This speed factor is.... i think so.... the responsible for the random behavior in missions.

My question is ?

It is correct to rise up the Speed Factor too much ?
Wich was in real life the maximun speed at wich DDs can use the pasive sensor without being affected by background noise ?

If we adjust a determined value ..... waht happens with missions where the DDs was adjusted by mission builder at high speeds ?

Still testing here........