Definitive torpedo depth/exploder status in 1.2

[UnSalted]

I've only used the Mk 14s so far. I've got a long list of things to try when I've finished my second campaign. Like mods, 100% realism etc.

[7Enigma]

Originally Posted by UnSalted

I used influence/contact. Never have used the Contact only. I never realized that some skippers preferred contact to keel shots until I came to this Board.

The reason a lot of us used contact-only was due to the theory that in the GAME they were reversed (ie switching to contact only was in reality contact-influenced). Also in reality (historical not the game) the CI had some serious problems early in the war, and that along with the depth issues and possible weather conditions lend a higher probability of a successful hit to the contact-only. For me the analogy is similar to a large-bore rifle and a machine gun. The former is similar to a CI torp, if it works its going to do tremendous damage, but if it misses your SOL. With the contact-only your odds of a successful hit are higher (IMO), but the possible damage is also lowered. I'll take a limping merchant over the one that steams off.

OK so the analogy is not very good. Bleh.

[UnSalted]

Does anyone remember what the default setting was when the game was first loaded? I don't remember changing mine so I guess I should qualify my post with "And I'm lazy too".

[orangenee]

The default is contact-influence. I'm only basing that on 1.2 though.

[Powerthighs]

Yes, the default setting in the game has always been contact\influence.

[popeye]

i just attacked a convoy and used the manual for keel depth reference. i set the depth for 25, as the book said 24 feet. all passed harmlessly under their targets.

only when i raised it to 15, did the torp go off. killed in one shot.

so, something isnt right. the book, or the depth settings.

[UnSalted]

All were large freighters/tankers?

I played around with shooting a tanker last night. Reloaded the saved game several times and used the same stern shot depths on a large tanker in a flat calm sea and watched it hit with the camera.

At 15-20 feet set depth I was tearing the props up. At 24 feet I went under the props and blew up against the keel or just under it.

I'll try it again with some medium tankers/freighters the next time I find a good target/sea.

[SingeDebile]

Originally Posted by Tronics

I think that the primitive magnetic detonators are designed to detonate when they cross the invert threshold of a magnetic field, aka where N and S flip, thus telling it quite ovbiously that 'it's time to explode now'.

this sounds like the most logical way the system would work.. good thinking!

[akdavis]

Originally Posted by popeye

mine had no such thing. i got the chinese version.

Chinese version, hey? What else was it missing?

[UnSalted]

OK.....thanks to the skipper of a Modern Medium Compoite Freighter who foolishly cruised past my bow, I have some data on medium freighters of that particular type.

Test at 3:35 AM local time,speed 5 knots, dead calm (and I mean hardly a ripple), ship riding "normal" meaning the edge of the painted red bottom of the ship was steady on the actual waterline. All shots from the side at 90% perpendicular to the target. All shots were fired seperately with the sub submerged dead in the water using the computer firing solution for consistency at a range of about 820 yards. The ship type shows a draft of 7 meters so I used a rough converson of that being 23 feet.

Torpedos: Mark 14, issued in early December 1943.
Settings: Speed - High Exploder: Contact/Influence

Depth: 21 feet, 3 fired, one shot per test. All three went directly under the hull under the funnel and all three looked exactly the same in that they were almost scraping the keel paint. Not a single torpedo exploded, all passed under.

Depth: 20 feet, 3 fired, one shot per test. All three went directly under the funnel, all three exploded just under the keel...I think. The explosions appeared to be just under the keel and all three hull damage areas looked about the same looking up from below the ships. The hull damage was about even on both sides of the keel with the keel still showing as a slightly bolder narrow streak running down the center of the hull. None of the ships broke in half but all were slow sinkers....one took almost 40 minutes and the other two went down in about 5-10 minutes.

Depth: 19 feet, 3 fired, one shot per test. All three hit right above the keel and the damage was confined to the keel and bottom of the ship on the torpedoed side only. No damage on the far side of the keel.

The thing I still don't have a clue as to is when and how much of a "random influence modifier" is applied to the program to affect the torpedo paths/depths/etc. I'm sure there is a random factor used since no torpedo shots should ever be exactly alike and all of these were cookie-cutter close. I'd expect a lot more variation than what I got in the hit locations for example, but I'm close to the end of this patrol and the crew ratings are very high so that has to be factored in as well I guess.

Having done this set of shots, I think the difference between "just under the keel" and hitting the very bottom of the ship is way too fine to use any set rules. And I sure don't think I can trust the depths in the manual/TDC because all three at 21 feet went under what should have been a 23' deep hull.

So...I think I'll use some guesstimates and set the torpedo depths depending on the what the manual says it "should be", how low the target appears to be riding in the water, and how rough the seas are.

Torpedo firings are like any other thing I guess....you can learn the theory but you have to refine the technique through losts of practice.

[popeye]

good post salty. i was very frustrated when all my fish ran under their targets. like i said before, i set the depth based on the book, but it was pretty rough seas.

still, 15 feet is pretty far off the 24 stated in the manual.

[nomad_delta]

Oy, my brain hurts. I've been (somewhat) systematically test firing torpedos to try to answer some of my own questions. I've answered most of my own questions with the data I've collected, but unfortunately most of the answers have been "the game is FUBAR".

Now I'm in the process of trying to figure out exactly how the data contained within each ship's .SIM file affects the ship draft/effective torpedo depth, and whether there's any conceivable way I could create a mod to fix all the massively incorrect ship draft values in the game.

So far it's not looking good, because as Krupp mentioned in his "JP Ship Dimension Fix" mod thread, the draft values in the SIM files make absolutely no sense at all. They're not entered in anything even resembling real-world or game values, and modifying them doesn't result in any any kind of predictable results.

Even if I managed to figure that out, though, I don't think it would matter because changing the SIM draft values in any meaningful way actually visibly moves the ships up & down in the game. Getting the ships anywhere near the draft values listed in the recog. manuals (which I've only been able to accomplish through massive trial & error since the values don't make any sensE) usually results in the ships appearing to 'float' above the water w/ props & rudder out in the air, or being submerged almost to 'decks awash'.

I think the most important thing I've discovered so far is this: applying IDENTICAL values to ALL settings in a ship's SIM and CFG files does not result in identical drafts or maximum torpedo depths. As best I can tell this means that the game uses the actual 3D model (or some other mystical data hidden elsewhere) to determine whether a torpedo hits or not, and the SIM file data simply modifying the placement of that model.

Some other conclusions I've come to so far:

1. Contact/Influence definitely does not seem to work properly. I've confirmed this by finding the maximum depth at which Contact Only will get reliable hits on a ship, then firing a full salvo of torpedos set to Contact/Influence at just 1 foot below that depth and having ALL of the torpedos miss entirely. In all of my testing I have not been able to get any Influence detonations with torpedo depths set below what I determined the maximum Contact Only depth to be. This tells me that Influence detonations are not working properly.

2. The torpedo depth setting dial DOES change from Feet to Meters depending on whether you have the game set to Imperial or Metric, respectively. So with the game set to metric, setting the torpedo depth to '10' results in 10 meters (32.8 feet), while the same dial value on Imperial would result in 10 feet (3 meters). The game does seem to perform the conversions properly and consistently, so at least something works!

Anyway, I haven't even really begun to process all of the information I've gathered so far, but I'm still working on it & I'll post more information as I find it. Here's the raw data for those of you who might be interested -- it's a little cluttered 'cause I haven't had time to format it to be easier to read:

TORPEDO FIRING TESTS
"Torpedo Attack" training mission against Mogami Heavy Cruiser
According to in-game recog. manual, Mogami Heavy Cruiser has a draft of 4.4 meters, which converts to 14.5 feet.
The NCA_Mogami.sim data file contains the following values:
mass=9500
gc_height=6
fr_ratio=0.5
put_on_water=1
displacementSurfaced=0
draightSurfaced=0
dragSurfaced=0.5
displacementSubmerged=0
draughtSubmerged=10.5
dragSubmerged=0.5
Manual Targeting: DISABLED
Measurement Units: IMPERIAL
Torpedo Depth: 29, Contact/Influence, Fast
1. MISS (under)
2. MISS (under)
3. MISS (under)
4. MISS (under)
Torpedo Depth: 29, Contact, Fast
1. MISS (under)
2. MISS (under)
3. MISS (under)
4. MISS (under)
Torpedo Depth: 28, Contact/Influence, Fast
1. HIT
2. HIT
3. HIT
4. HIT (Destroyed)
Torpedo Depth: 28, Contact, Fast
1. HIT
2. MISS (under)
3. MISS (under)
4. MISS (under)
Torpedo Depth: 27, Contact/Influence, Fast
1. HIT
2. HIT
3. HIT
4. HIT (destroyed)
Torpedo Depth: 27, Contact, Fast
1. HIT
2. HIT
3. HIT
4. MISS (under)
Torpedo Depth: 26, Contact/Influence, Fast
1. HIT
2. HIT
3. MISS (under)
4. HIT (destroyed)
Torpedo Depth: 26, Contact, Fast
1. HIT
2. HIT
3. MISS (under)
4. HIT (destroyed, sank within approx 1 minute)
Torpedo Depth: 25, Contact/Influence, Fast
1. HIT
2. HIT
3. HIT
4. HIT (destroyed)
Torpedo Depth: 25, Contact, Fast
1. HIT
2. HIT
3. HIT
4. MISS (under)
Manual Targeting: DISABLED
Measurement Units: METRIC
Torpedo Depth: 25, Contact/Influence, Fast
1. MISS (under)
2. MISS (under)
3. MISS (under)
4. MISS( under)
Torpedo Depth: 25, Contact, Fast
1. MISS (under)
2. MISS (under)
3. MISS (under)
4. MISS (under)
Torpedo Depth: 10, Contact/Influence, Fast
1. MISS (under)
2. MISS (under)
3. MISS (under)
4. MISS (under)
Torpedo Depth: 10, Contact, Fast
1. MISS (under)
2. MISS (under)
3. MISS (under)
4. MISS (under)
Torpedo Depth: 9, Contact/Influence, Fast
1. MISS (under)
2. MISS (under)
3. MISS (under)
4. MISS (under)
Torpedo Depth: 8.5, Contact/Influence, Fast
1. HIT
2. HIT
3. HIT
4. HIT (destroyed)
Torpedo Depth: 8.5, Contact, Fast
1. HIT
2. HIT
3. HIT
4. HIT (destroyed)
Torpedo Depth: 8, Contact/Influence, Fast
1. HIT
2. HIT
3. HIT
4. HIT (destroyed)
Torpedo Depth: 8, Contact, Fast
1. HIT
2. HIT
3. HIT
4. HIT (destroyed)
Torpedo Depth: 4.5, Contact/Influence, Fast
1. MISS (under)
2. HIT
3. HIT
4. HIT
Torpedo Depth: 4.5, Contact, Fast
1. HIT
2. DUD
3. HIT
4. HIT
Torpedo Depth 4, Contact/Influence, Fast
1. HIT
2. HIT
3. HIT
4. HIT (destroyed)
Torpedo Depth 6, Contact/Influence, Fast
1. HIT
2. HIT
3. HIT
4. HIT (destroyed)
__________________________________________________ _
Changed draughtSubmerged value in NCA_Mogami.sim data file to '5.25'.
NOTE: This VISIBLY moved the entire ship up vertically in the game so that the propellers and rudder were approx 1/3rd out of the water.
Manual Targeting: DISABLED
Measurement Units: METRIC
Torpedo Depth 8.5, Contact/Influence, Fast
1. MISS (under)
2. MISS (under)
3. MISS (under)
4. MISS (under)
Torpedo Depth 4, Contact/Influence, Fast
1. HIT
2. MISS (under)
3. HIT
4. HIT
Torpedo Depth 4.5, Contact/Influence, Fast
1. MISS (under)
2. MISS (under)
3. HIT
4. MISS (under)
Torpedo Depth 5, Contact/Influence, Fast
1. MISS (under)
2. MISS (under)
3. MISS (under)
4. MISS (under)
Manual Targeting: DISABLED
Measurement Units: IMPERIAL
Torpedo Depth 27, Contact/Influence, Fast
1. MISS (under)
2. MISS (under)
3. MISS (under)
4. MISS (under)
Torpedo Depth 13.5, Contact/Influence, Fast
1. HIT
2. HIT
3. HIT
4. HIT (destroyed)
Torpedo Depth 14, Contact/Influence, Fast
1. HIT
2. HIT
3. HIT (destroyed, sunk after approx 2 minutes)
4. MISS (under)
Torpedo Depth 14.5, Contact/Influence, Fast
1. MISS (under)
2. HIT
3. MISS (under)
4. HIT
Torpedo Depth 14.5, Contact, Fast
1. HIT
2. MISS (under)
3. HIT
4. HIT (destroyed, sunk after approx 3 minutes)
Torpedo Depth 15, Contact/Influence, Fast
1. MISS (under)
2. MISS (under)
3. MISS (under)
4. MISS (under)
__________________________________________________ _
Changed draughtSubmerged value in NCA_Mogami.sim data file to '0'.
Changed draughtSurfaced value in NCA_Mogami.sim data file to '5.25'.
NOTE: Ship appears to sit in the water 'normally' at this value; rudder & propellers are fully submerged to a reasonable level.
Manual Targeting: DISABLED
Measurement Units: IMPERIAL
Torpedo Depth 14, Contact/Influence, Fast
1. HIT
2. HIT
3. DUD
4. HIT (destroyed)
Torpedo Depth 15, Contact/Influence, Fast
1. HIT
2. HIT
3. DUD
4. HIT (destroyed, sank after approx 5 minutes)
Torpedo Depth 16, Contact/Influence, Fast
1. HIT
2. HIT
3. DUD
4. DUD
Torpedo Depth 18, Contact/Influence, Fast
1. HIT
2. HIT
3. HIT
4. HIT (destroyed)
Torpedo Depth 18, Contact, Fast
1. HIT
2. HIT
3. HIT
4. HIT (destroyed)
Torpedo Depth 20, Contact/Influence, Fast
1. HIT
2. HIT
3. HIT
4. HIT (destroyed)
Torpedo Depth 22, Contact/Influence, Fast
1. HIT
2. HIT
3. HIT
4. HIT (destroyed)
Torpedo Depth 23, Contact, Fast
1. HIT
2. MISS (under)
3. HIT
4. HIT (destroyed, sank after approx 7 minutes)
Torpedo Depth 24, Contact/Influence, Fast
1. MISS (under)
2. MISS (under)
3. HIT
4. HIT
Torpedo Depth 24, Contact, Fast
1. MISS (under)
2. MISS (under)
3. MISS (under)
4. MISS (under)

Torpedo Depth 25, Contact/Influence, Fast
1. MISS (under)
2. MISS (under)
3. MISS (under)
4. MISS (under)
Torpedo Depth 30, Contact/Influence, Fast
1. MISS (under)
2. MISS (under)
3. MISS (under)
4. MISS (under)
__________________________________________________ _
Changed draughtSubmerged value in NCA_Mogami.sim data file to '0'.
Changed draughtSurfaced value in NCA_Mogami.sim data file to '10.5'.
NOTE: Ship is visibly submerged much lower than normal, with decks appearing only a few feet above the water line.
Manual Targeting: DISABLED
Measurement Units: IMPERIAL
Torpedo Depth 27, Contact, Fast
1. HIT (destroyed instantly)
2. HIT
3. HIT
4. HIT
Torpedo Depth 30, Contact, Fast
1. HIT
2. MISS (under)
3. HIT
4. HIT (destroyed)
Torpedo Depth 31, Contact, Fast
1. HIT
2. MISS (under)
3. HIT
4. HIT (destroyed, sunk after approx 3 minutes)
Torpedo Depth 35, Contact, Fast
1. HIT
2. HIT
3. HIT (destroyed instantly)
4. HIT
Torpedo Depth 37, Contact, Fast
1. HIT
2. HIT
3. HIT
4. HIT (destroyed)
Torpedo Depth 39, Contact, Fast
1. HIT
2. MISS (under)
3. HIT
4. HIT (destroyed)
Torpedo Depth 41, Contact, Fast
1. HIT
2. MISS (under)
3. HIT
4. HIT (destroyed)
Torpedo Depth 42, Contact/Influence, Fast
1. MISS (under)
2. MISS (under)
3. MISS (under)
4. MISS (under)
Torpedo Depth 42, Contact, Fast
1. MISS (under)
2. MISS (under)
3. MISS (under)
4. MISS (under)
Torpedo Depth 43, Contact, Fast
1. MISS (under)
2. MISS (under)
3. MISS (under)
4. MISS (under)
__________________________________________________ _
Changed draughtSubmerged value in NCA_Mogami.sim data file to '0'.
Changed draughtSurfaced value in NCA_Mogami.sim data file to '0'.
NOTE: Ship appears to be sitting in the water 'normally' at this setting, with water line exactly at the point where the ship changes color from silver to red.
Manual Targeting: DISABLED
Measurement Units: IMPERIAL
Torpedo Depth 27, Contact, Fast
1. HIT
2. HIT
3. HIT
4. HIT (destroyed)
Torpedo Depth 28, Contact, Fast
1. HIT
2. MISS (under)
3. HIT
4. HIT (sank after approx 4 minutes)
Torpedo Depth 29, Contact, Fast
1. MISS (under)
2. MISS (under)
3. MISS (under)
4. MISS (under)
Torpedo Depth 29, Contact/Influence, Fast
1. MISS (under)
2. MISS (under)
3. MISS (under)
4. MISS (under)
Torpedo Depth 30, Contact, Fast
1. MISS (under)
2. MISS (under)
3. MISS (under)
4. MISS (under)
__________________________________________________ _
Changed draughtSubmerged value in NCA_Mogami.sim data file to '0'.
Changed draughtSurfaced value in NCA_Mogami.sim data file to '0'.
Changed gc_height value in NCA_Mogami.sim data file to '12'.
NOTE: Ship appears to be sitting in the water 'normally' at this setting, with water line exactly at the point where the ship changes color from silver to red.
Manual Targeting: DISABLED
Measurement Units: IMPERIAL
Torpedo Depth 28, Contact, Fast
1. HIT
2. MISS (under)
3. HIT (destroyed instantly)
4. HIT
Torpedo Depth 29, Contact, Fast
1. MISS (under)
2. MISS (under)
3. MISS (under)
4. MISS (under)
__________________________________________________ _
Changed draughtSubmerged value in NCA_Mogami.sim data file to '7'.
Changed draughtSurfaced value in NCA_Mogami.sim data file to '0'.
NOTE: Ship appears to be sitting in the water 'normally' at this setting, with water line exactly at the point where the ship changes color from silver to red.
Manual Targeting: DISABLED
Measurement Units: IMPERIAL
Torpedo Depth 28, Contact, Fast
1. HIT
2. MISS (under)
3. HIT (destroyed instantly)
4. HIT
Torpedo Depth 29, Contact, Fast
1. MISS (under)
2. MISS (under)
3. MISS (under)
4. MISS (under)
__________________________________________________ _
"Torpedo Attack" training mission against Taiho Fleet Carrier (modified training mission in Mission Editor & replaced Mogami w/ Taiho)
According to in-game recog. manual, Taiho Fleet Carrier has a draft of 31.2 feet.
The NCV_Taiho.sim data file contains the following values:
mass=35000
gc_height=13
fr_ratio=0.5
put_on_water=1
displacementSurfaced=0
draughtSurfaced=0
dragSurfaced=0
displacementSubmerged=0
draughtSubmerged=25
dragSubmerged=0.5
Manual Targeting: DISABLED
Measurement Units: IMPERIAL
Torpedo Depth: 35, Contact, Fast
1. HIT
2. HIT
3. HIT
4. HIT (destroyed)
Torpedo Depth: 36, Contact, Fast
1. HIT
2. HIT
3. HIT
4. HIT (destroyed)
Torpedo Depth: 38, Contact, Fast
1. HIT
2. HIT
3. HIT
4. HIT (destroyed)
Torpedo Depth: 38, Contact/Influence, Fast
1. HIT
2. HIT
3. HIT
4. HIT (destroyed)
Torpedo Depth: 39, Contact, Fast
1. MISS (under)
2. MISS (under)
3. MISS (under)
4. MISS (under)
Torpedo Depth: 39, Contact/Influence, Fast
1. MISS (under)
2. MISS (under)
3. MISS (under)
4. MISS (under)
Torpedo Depth: 40, Contact, Fast
1. MISS (under)
2. MISS (under)
3. MISS (under)
4. MISS (under)
__________________________________________________
Changed draughtSubmerged value in NCV_Taiho.sim data file to '10.5'.
Manual Targeting: DISABLED
Measurement Units: IMPERIAL
Torpedo Depth: 38, Contact, Fast
1. HIT
2. HIT
3. HIT
4. HIT (destroyed)
Torpedo Depth: 39, Contact, Fast
1. MISS (under)
2. MISS (under)
3. MISS (under)
4. MISS (under)
__________________________________________________
Changed draughtSubmerged value in NCV_Taiho.sim data file to '7.0'.
NOTE: This VISIBLY moved the entire ship up vertically in the game so that the propellers and rudder were almost entirely out of the water.
Manual Targeting: DISABLED
Measurement Units: IMPERIAL
Torpedo Depth: 28, Contact, Fast
1. MISS (under)
2. MISS (under)
3. MISS (under)
4. MISS (under)

[Jungman]

1. Contact/Influence definitely does not seem to work properly. I've confirmed this by finding the maximum depth at which Contact Only will get reliable hits on a ship, then firing a full salvo of torpedos set to Contact/Influence at just 1 foot below that depth and having ALL of the torpedos miss entirely. In all of my testing I have not been able to get any Influence detonations with torpedo depths set below what I determined the maximum Contact Only depth to be. This tells me that Influence detonations are not working properly.

Yes, that is what I found out. I posted along time ago some data.

Contact/Influence does not explode just under the keel, as you stated. Same test procedure.

[SteamWake]

Originally Posted by Jungman

Yes, that is what I found out. I posted along time ago some data.

Contact/Influence does not explode just under the keel, as you stated. Same test procedure.

Strange as I have successfully pulled off "under the keel" detonations. But in a similar manner to contact pistols the best results is at a 90 degree angle to the target and just barely beneath the boat seemed like inches.

Then again Ive had influence pistols run along the entire length of a ship stern to bow with no detonation.

[nomad_delta]

Originally Posted by SteamWake

Strange as I have successfully pulled off "under the keel" detonations. But in a similar manner to contact pistols the best results is at a 90 degree angle to the target and just barely beneath the boat seemed like inches.

Then again Ive had influence pistols run along the entire length of a ship stern to bow with no detonation.

Note that I didn't include in my testing any 'visual' check of where the torpedos looked like they were going. I haven't completely verified this, but I'm thinking the game doesn't quite render the torpedos and ships visually consistent with the "hit boxes" it uses to determine whether it impacts or not. I say this because I've definitely seen what visually appeared to be "under the keel" detonations when my torpedos were set to 'contact only'.

It's all so confusing. I'm planning on doing some more extensive and more thorough testing after 1.3 is released so we can get some definitive answers, and see whether any of this mess is changed/improved by the patch. Here's hoping.

nomad_delta