[REL] Real Fleet Boat

[Beery]

Originally Posted by Palidian

Interesting you just admitted your gun mod is incorrect....


However I went back and read this thread, and most agree that your gun mod is out of line, except you.

LOL. Yup, one more for the ignore list.

[Palidian]

I am sure you are referring to miss fires, and not dud rounds, they happen but are very rare, 1-3 in 10,000. Some guns are not cartridges, and it is easy to change the primer. You can just open the breech and the ejector just tosses the round out, in fact it is easer to eject non fired round as the brass has not expanded to the barrel.


This mod does not do that, if someone is 500 yards away they are firing as fast as possible, not waiting for damage assessment, or ranging adjustment. If you are going to make a historical accurate model then you must be able to recreate all possible events. You don't do this by placing an arbitrary historical average limit over everything. I know when I fire the deck gun I take time to aim at specific points, this lowers the rate of fire.

Originally Posted by tater

Yes, the gun may well be loaded in 8 seconds. As you say, the actual Rate Of FIRE (not rate of RELOAD) is controlled by many factors.

The game gives us control of ONE of the factors so far (the gyro stabilization is a WIP if it works at all), so if we wish to control the totality of ROF, we have no choice but to use the crude tool of altering the rate of RELOADING since it's the only tool in the toolbox.

Duds and clearing them? Not modeled. Gun crew efficiency as a function of sea state? Not there, either (short of forcing them all below at some wave factor). Waiting for the right moment in the roll and pitch of the boat to fire? Not in there, gun is gyro stabilized.

So what's your point? Beery has already stated that he's trying to get battle surface actions to match historical norms using the only tool he has, controlling the ROF. Up the gun to 8-9 rpm, and most surface actions will be over in 2-3 minutes, regardless of ANY other factor. Sub at flank speed in rough seas, twisting and turning. I took out multiple DDs on a lark doing just that. Sure, I got shot up, but I sank 4 DDs, and went back to Manila for more ammo. Utter BS.

The goal is to match historical norms.

It should be pretty straightforward for you to look in your library and find a description of a submarine gun action where they put 100 rounds downrange in 11 or 12 minutes. (at ~3000-3500 yards that means the gun is fired ~3.5 seconds after the fall of the shot is observed, BTW, based on time of flight of the round).

I'm not a staunch defender of 23 seconds, either. My gut says a number more like 15 seconds (4 rpm) is probably better assuming crew quality reduces it some below "elite."

BTW< I'd love to make the SHIPS use ROFs much closer to spec for the guns since they are far far more stable platforms, and in the case of warships at the very least, have plenty of ready ammo. If the ships shot back at anything like a realistic ROF, you'd turn tail and run at the first shot from one (which is what subs usually did).
tater

[Palidian]

Afraid of the truth?

Originally Posted by Beery

LOL. Yup, one more for the ignore list.

[Palidian]

Yes the game is wrong, however it dose not deal with weather effects on the crew, in the grew wolves expansion, a wave rolls on the deck and the gun stops loading and rotating. Making a blanket rate of fire dose not recreate historical values.


Why is it been determined that the Wahoo had an elite crew anyways?

Originally Posted by tater

The mod IS wrong wrt guns.

The GAME is wrong wrt to guns.

The choice is simply HOW to be wrong.

Palidian, et al, would have the ROF match the spec sheet value. The ROF might be right. The end results in the SH4 engine would be wrong. The deck gun would be the dominant weapon of the submarine, or at least an equal to torpedos. It wasn't in RL, so that's clearly wrong. Right specifics, wrong end result.

RFB has a super slow Rate Of Reloading. Instantaneously (time between 2 shots), the ROF is wrong. It's wrong. Over an entire gunnery engagement with a likely target, it's more or less right. So the wrong specifics, but the right end result.

It's not really any more complicated than that. I think there is room for intelligent discussion on the exact ROF to achieve a historical result, and Beery is open to such a discussion for his mod. He doesn't want spec sheet ROFs, he has those, he wants logs of RESULTS because what he's trying to get at is a simulation of the right OUTCOMES for particular decisions on the part of the skipper.


tater

[flymar]

Are the chalk board tonnages any close to real ones? Still have 'bout 5 times more then the best one:|

[Palidian]

The deck gun was an ineffective weapon, as such they got rid of them, mostly because subs spent more time under water, and a sub being small is an unstable platform, and getting hits at range is hard to do. I rarely use the deck gun, but when I do its at close ramge, and at an allready damaged target or one that will not shoot back.

The game is fairly accurate with respect of the deck gun, it deals with the time of flight of the shell, and it is hard to hit at range, altho not hard enough.

I will agree 10-15 seconds is a much better rate, however if firing at 100 yards, you are going to be pulling the trigger when you hear the breach close, at least a trained crew will be. That is somewhat possable in the origional game, but not when you make it 40 seconds bu some arbutary avarage number.

Originally Posted by tater

The mod IS wrong wrt guns.

The GAME is wrong wrt to guns.

The choice is simply HOW to be wrong.

Palidian, et al, would have the ROF match the spec sheet value. The ROF might be right. The end results in the SH4 engine would be wrong. The deck gun would be the dominant weapon of the submarine, or at least an equal to torpedos. It wasn't in RL, so that's clearly wrong. Right specifics, wrong end result.

RFB has a super slow Rate Of Reloading. Instantaneously (time between 2 shots), the ROF is wrong. It's wrong. Over an entire gunnery engagement with a likely target, it's more or less right. So the wrong specifics, but the right end result.

It's not really any more complicated than that. I think there is room for intelligent discussion on the exact ROF to achieve a historical result, and Beery is open to such a discussion for his mod. He doesn't want spec sheet ROFs, he has those, he wants logs of RESULTS because what he's trying to get at is a simulation of the right OUTCOMES for particular decisions on the part of the skipper.


tater

[clayp]

I dont understand why so much BS about the D** deck gun.. Who cares!!!!!!! ..RFB is a great mod......

[panthercules]

Originally Posted by clayp

I dont understand why so much BS about the D** deck gun.. Who cares!!!!!!! ..RFB is a great mod......

AMEN to that!

Palidian et al. - how about taking this deck gun discussion into a separate/new deck gun thread - that way you and any others (including Beery if he wants to) can discuss it to your heart's content and it will be focused on this one narrow aspect. RFB's got way more in it than just the deck gun tweak, and this issue/aspect has been beaten pretty well to death here. Anybody that doesn't agree with Beery or the RFB ROF approach can easily change their own ROF with the minitweaker, so there's really no reason to keep clogging up this thread trying to get Beery to change his mind on this one.

[tater]

Yes, in RL, as the target gets close enough that aim is no longer a consideration, they'd shoot the second the breech closed, I agree.

I can fire my SMLE, cycling the bolt while the weapon is shouldered. I can actually pull the trigger with my middle finger, and never take my hand off the bolt. In this way I can put rounds down range at a very very high ROF---very roughly aimed.

If you asked me what the max ROF was of my enfield, I guess I'd have to time it and tell you that number. My maximum AIMED ROF would vary depending on posture (standing, prone, bench, etc), and it would be FAR less than the max. at least 5 times slower, maybe 10X slower if I was aiming at the 600 yard target at the range.

Until kv29's mod is done, when looking at OUTCOMES of engagements, there is no possible control other than ROF. Aim in the stock game is a joke, find the range, then hit every time, even at pretty long ranges. The ROF in the stock game is dominated by the reload time, effectively the reload time directly converts to ROF.

With kv29's mod (woot!) aiming matters in ROF calculations. You can actually pull the trigger as soon as the round is loaded if you are lying to next to a frieghter so close you can't miss. As close as 1000 yards, you have to consider the aim (roll and pitch of deck), even in light seas.

This destabilization mod will be a powerful tool that simply did not exist when this conversation started for making gun engagements more realistic.

Before this, I'd say limiting the ROF to historical norms for sustained operations is a fine stop gap.

[Driscol]

I applaud your efforts to reduce the effectiveness of the AI anti-aircraft fire. Unfortunately, even the 600 yd range limitation doesn't seem to work. I recently played a coral sea mission (created by FAdmiral) and after being severely damaged by an initial attack by Val's (so that I couldn't dive) my gunners managed to destroy about a third of a Japanese fleet carrier's air arm. Four Vals and four Zeros is pretty good shooting for a single sub, travelling at 3 knots, using only a damaged 20 mm AA gun.

In the end, my sub was sunk by a coordinated attack by four aircraft. If only I had had a second AA gun.

[clayp]

Originally Posted by Driscol

I applaud your efforts to reduce the effectiveness of the AI anti-aircraft fire. Unfortunately, even the 600 yd range limitation doesn't seem to work. I recently played a coral sea mission (created by FAdmiral) and after being severely damaged by an initial attack by Val's (so that I couldn't dive) my gunners managed to destroy about a third of a Japanese fleet carrier's air arm. Four Vals and four Zeros is pretty good shooting for a single sub, travelling at 3 knots, using only a damaged 20 mm AA gun.

In the end, my sub was sunk by a coordinated attack by four aircraft. If only I had had a second AA gun.

Where did you get that mission please??

[Driscol]

Its listed in the Mission Designers Forum (next subdirectory) under the topic "Coral Sea Patrol" by FAdmiral. He's made a .mis and a .tsr file available for download and you just have to set them up in a folder as a single mission.

[clayp]

Originally Posted by Driscol

Its listed in the Mission Designers Forum (next subdirectory) under the topic "Coral Sea Patrol" by FAdmiral. He's made a .mis and a .tsr file available for download and you just have to set them up in a folder as a single mission.

Thank you sir.....

[Fearless]

Originally Posted by panthercules

AMEN to that!

Palidian et al. - how about taking this deck gun discussion into a separate/new deck gun thread - that way you and any others (including Beery if he wants to) can discuss it to your heart's content and it will be focused on this one narrow aspect. RFB's got way more in it than just the deck gun tweak, and this issue/aspect has been beaten pretty well to death here. Anybody that doesn't agree with Beery or the RFB ROF approach can easily change their own ROF with the minitweaker, so there's really no reason to keep clogging up this thread trying to get Beery to change his mind on this one.

Spot on.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Originally Posted by clayp

I dont understand why so much BS about the D** deck gun.. Who cares!!!!!!!

Agreeing with you. Have the mod, play with it engaged all the time. Never had an issue with it. I just ignore their b.s. in posting. The mod has given me countless hours of enjoyment - to the point of I could care less when the 1.3 patch occurs. Nothing is perfect. I only use the deck gun to polish off something that received a few torpedoes already from yours truly. Have been reading the rants for 10 days and I get a chuckle out of them. It's amazing how they bitch and moan about it and NEVER thank the author for a very nice MOD.

Thank for the nice mod, Berry, sir! Someone luvs it!