[REL] Real Fleet Boat

[azn_132]

Originally Posted by Palidian

transports were traveling 1 knot .

Wat?! 1kt?:hmm:

[tedhealy]

Originally Posted by Palidian

Yes a Gato can stay down for 48 hrs, even longer, but not at a speed of 4 knots, that time is about 14 hrs.

Check out the realistic battery mod, perhaps it is closer, otherwise Beery would have to look into this.

The switch does not switch back in my game, during play, unless you load a save, only after I installed the mod, and you will hear them click back.

Still not sure exactly what you are saying. With the stock game, when you switch from magnetic to contact detonator, within about 30 seconds the switch will click back to magnetic. RFB did not introduce this, it was in the stock game with a loaded save or not.

Yes torps did have gyro malfunctions however not at the rate, with this mod, as I said 500 yards at a stationary target, I only got about a 40% hit rate. Of that most were duds, this is accurate with magnetic detonators. The USS Tang was sunk by one of its own torps, it was the only ship to my knowlege.

Are you using the latest RFB? This issue was reduced slightly in a recent update. I have not experienced a hit rate that low at 500 yards. Perhaps you are under 500 yards and the torpedoes aren't allowed enough time to arm?

I see the fish that veer off very rarely, my biggest failures are prematures and mk14's hitting at 90 degrees for a contact pin failure.

I was personally firing the deck gun and never missed.

Still not sure where you are going. You mentioned that you fired the deck gun and got lots of misses earlier.

while waiting for reloading, I fired the deck gun.
I got 5 hits, a lot of misses, odd since I was within 500 yards and it was not moving.

Are you saying you don't like the deck gun? The AI gun crew isn't accurate enough? The shell power isn't strong enough?

I set the depth at the minimum allowed, I have hindsight, knowing that the warhead was heaver then the test warhead, and the nose tended to run low causing the torpedo to run 7 to 11 feet deeper. This was not an issue with the Mark 10 IRL, however the mod gives them poor firing pins, and they run deep. In the normal game they are good torpedoes, however there too common.

Again, RFB is using the realistic torpedo mod and I'm pretty sure that mod does not adjust mark 10 torpedoes. Hopefully someone can answer that 100%.

[tater]

Actually, Mk 10 torpedos did run deep in RL. ~4 feet according to BuOrd.

http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/1592/ustorp2.htm

They didn't run as deep as the Mk 14s, and it wasn't as much of an issue since they were aimed for contact vs already aimed under the ship like the Mk14s.

The hardcore torpedo mod does model the deep running of the Mk10.

As for the 1 knot transports, that's in the mission, actually. The have them mill about at 1 knot, presumably to represent the invasion. A better version of the invasion forces will have them stopped closer to shore (you can set 0.001 knot waypoints, they'll look virtually stationary).

tater

[Palidian]

When I played the stock game, 1.2 I nave had the magnetic/impact, or the speed change back unless I restarted the game, or loaded a new torp. I was standard procedure to start the game, and flip all the switched. I am using the latest mod, 1.28, torps should be armed by 300 yards, 500 yards should be a good range. What is the arm range in the mod? I may of worded it wrong, I got a lot of misses from the torps, I was within 500 yards with the deck gun when I was firing. The deck gun seems very week, in the mod. Torp damage seem ok aside from the DD I hit 5 times with mark 14s then 150 deck gun rounds. 200+ 4” rounds to sink a small transport, seems like a lot, and DDs should not stay afloat after 2 torps hits. This makes me think that the DD damage model is bad, and the deck gun damage output is bad, I have only hit one DD however, 5 hits could have been a fluke, but there still is the issue that it was dead in the water after one hit, and after two hits I surfaced and it never shot back. After my test with the S boat, maybe the mod counts mk10s in a Sboat as mk10, but since the mk10s were reserved for them your not really loading mk10s in other boats.

Originally Posted by tedhealy

Check out the realistic battery mod, perhaps it is closer, otherwise Beery would have to look into this.

Still not sure exactly what you are saying. With the stock game, when you switch from magnetic to contact detonator, within about 30 seconds the switch will click back to magnetic. RFB did not introduce this, it was in the stock game with a loaded save or not.

Are you using the latest RFB? This issue was reduced slightly in a recent update. I have not experienced a hit rate that low at 500 yards. Perhaps you are under 500 yards and the torpedoes aren't allowed enough time to arm?

I see the fish that veer off very rarely, my biggest failures are prematures and mk14's hitting at 90 degrees for a contact pin failure.

Still not sure where you are going. You mentioned that you fired the deck gun and got lots of misses earlier.

Are you saying you don't like the deck gun? The AI gun crew isn't accurate enough? The shell power isn't strong enough?

Again, RFB is using the realistic torpedo mod and I'm pretty sure that mod does not adjust mark 10 torpedoes. Hopefully someone can answer that 100%.

[Palidian]

It was an invastion fleet off the coast of Luzon.

Originally Posted by azn_132

Wat?! 1kt?:hmm:

[Beery]

In response to Palidian:

RFB is realistic. The criticisms you've made are real issues, BUT they're either caused by standard SH4 bugs or they're realistic features:

Battery power on Gato - realistic. This has been tested and it conforms to real world data.
Contact only torpedoes - unchanged from stock SH4.
Torpedoes not going down proper heading - historically accurate.
Mk.10 torpedo performing as Mk.14 - a bug with stock SH4. Cannot be fixed by RFB.
Ship damage model - unchanged from stock SH4.
Deck gun accuracy - unchanged from stock SH4.
Deck gun shell effectiveness - historically accurate. Conforms to real world data.
Torpedoes running too deep - historically accurate.

[Beery]

Originally Posted by Palidian

Yes a Gato can stay down for 48 hrs, even longer, but not at a speed of 4 knots, that time is about 14 hrs.

RFB uses CCIP's increased battery life mod. If there is an issue with it (and I'm not saying there is - I know virtually nothing about WW2 sub batteries) I'd still much prefer to use it than the stock SH4 setting because CCIP's mod permits staying under during the day (an historical tactic) whereas stock SH4's setting does not. If anyone can make a more realistic mod I'll gladly add it to RFB, but until then CCIP's work is the best battery version we have.

The switch does not switch back in my game, during play, unless you load a save, only after I installed the mod, and you will hear them click back.

Has to be a stock SH4 bug or a bug in another third party mod you're using. As far as I know no mod in RFB adjusts the torpedo setting switches.

Yes torps did have gyro malfunctions however not at the rate, with this mod, as I said 500 yards at a stationary target, I only got about a 40% hit rate. Of that most were duds, this is accurate with magnetic detonators. The USS Tang was sunk by one of its own torps, it was the only ship to my knowlege.

RFB's torpedo effectiveness is far more accurate than that of the stock game. There are only two options in this regard - stock SH4 or CCIP's torpedo mod. CCIP's mod (included in RFB) is the most realistic option by far and as far as I know it's extremely realistic. If anyone wants to make a more accurate torpedo mod I'll gladly include it in RFB, but until then CCIP's work is the best version we have.

As for USS Tang, the fact that she was the only sub to be torpedoed by a circle runner in no way proves that circle runners were rare - it only proves that getting sunk by one was rare.

I was personally firing the deck gun and never missed.

The deck gun is absolutely realistic. It conforms to real world data. Ships were simply not that easy to sink with a deck gun. We've been through this over and over again and no one has ever proven that RFB's deck gun shell effectiveness falls outside of real world parameters.

I set the depth at the minimum allowed, I have hindsight, knowing that the warhead was heaver then the test warhead, and the nose tended to run low causing the torpedo to run 7 to 11 feet deeper. This was not an issue with the Mark 10 IRL, however the mod gives them poor firing pins, and they run deep. In the normal game they are good torpedoes, however there too common.

RFB does not touch the Mk.10 torpedo. There may be a bug in the standard game whereby Mk.10 torpedoes use Mk.14 data. This is not the fault of RFB. Since the Mk.14 was the most commonly used torpedo in use by WW2 US subs the Mk.14 must be as accurate as possible and if that means that (due to a stock game bug) the Mk.10 is rendered less realistic that is a flaw we must accept. RFB is focused on getting the game as realistic as possible and when the options are to either make the Mk.14 as accurate as the Mk.10 or to make the Mk.10 as inaccurate as the Mk.14 I have to go for the latter. If anyone can find a better solution I'll gladly put it in RFB, but until then we're stuck making the best of the problems the game forces on us.

[tater]

I thought CCIP said that he set the mk10 to run 4 feet deep (which is what it did in RL). The RL "fix" for the mk10 was to set it shallow by 4 feet.

BTW, the torpedo arming distance in the torpedo mod is 450 yards, which is historical. The game default was 220m, which was short.

The Mk10 might have had a shorter distance*, not sure what CCIP did about that.

*the long arming distance on the mk14 was a function of the mk6 magnetic exploder. They needed to make sure it was sufficiently far from the submarine before it armed.

tater

[Beery]

Originally Posted by Palidian

When I played the stock game, 1.2 I nave had the magnetic/impact, or the speed change back unless I restarted the game, or loaded a new torp. I was standard procedure to start the game, and flip all the switched. I am using the latest mod, 1.28, torps should be armed by 300 yards, 500 yards should be a good range. What is the arm range in the mod?

As far as I'm aware torpedo settings are unchanged in RFB from the stock game. RFB torpedo arming settings in RFB are based on historical data.

I may of worded it wrong, I got a lot of misses from the torps

As I said previously, torpedoes are as close as we can get them to the reality. RFB uses the most historically accurate torpedo mod in existence. I'm always open to incorporating more realistic mods but such a mod does not currently exist and may never exist.

I was within 500 yards with the deck gun when I was firing. The deck gun seems very week, in the mod.

It is and it should be. Deck guns were very VERY bad at sinking ships. Look at the real world data to see how ineffective deck guns were. RFB's deck gun effectiveness is balanced to give damage that, as much as possible, reproduces the data we've seen from real deck gun sinkings. We can only match the data we've seen and RFB does this and, as far as I've been able to test, it does it perfectly, giving a range of results that can be matched by real world examples.

Torp damage seem ok aside from the DD I hit 5 times with mark 14s then 150 deck gun rounds.

Remember that Mk.14 torpedoes had the annoying habit of exploding just outside the range needed to damage a ship. Many of the apparent contact explosions you're seeing may not be causing any problems. This is realistic.

Torpedo effectiveness for torpedoes that hit a ship is unchanged from stock SH4. If the torpedoes are exploding with too little effect that's a problem that the developers need to be told about. As for deck guns vs. DDs I've never tested such a thing because using a deck gun against a destroyer is suicide - it shouldn't have to be tested because a destroyer should annihilate a sub in a gunnery duel - and in RFB it does. I'm not sure how you outshot a DD while using RFB - it shouldn't be possible unless the ships guns can't be brought to bear, and if that was the case 150 deck gun rounds is by no means unusual given the data I've seen from real deck gun engagements.

200+ 4” rounds to sink a small transport, seems like a lot,

It is a lot, but it's absolutely 100% historically accurate.

and DDs should not stay afloat after 2 torps hits.

Talk to the devs about this - RFB does not alter any torpedo effectiveness values for torpedoes that explode on the target ship.

This makes me think that the DD damage model is bad,

If it is, talk to SH4's developers. RFB does not alter this in any way. At this point I will not touch ship damage models because the data is too complex and altering it has too much potential for unintended consequences.

and the deck gun damage output is bad

What makes you think that the deck gun damage output is bad? You've posted no evidence beyond your opinion - I've seen no statistics or real world data on which your opinion is based. RFB's deck gun is based on real world data that's not open to interpretation - if I have three lots of deck gun use data for ships of 2,000 tons I calculate the average number of hits needed to sink such a ship and I try to make RFB conform to that as best I can. RFB's deck gun is not based on some fantasy figure I pulled out of my imagination. It's based on hard evidence from actual ship sinkings and if it's going to be changed more hard evidence needs to be forthcoming. Simply saying it's too weak isn't at all helpful.

[tater]

If anything the DDs are too easy to sink IMO. At least to guns and ramming.

[goose814]

I found some more info on the use of decoys. This is from the USS Barb (SS-220) patrol reports:

29 June 1945
1333-34 Ten or more depth charges to starboard and astern, above and below. Released 5 NAC beacons set on 3 minutes delay at about one minute intervals. Threw a couple of full speed knuckles then slowed to 70 RPM and withdrew tactically and tacitly from the coast. Several escorts made sweeps around us occasionally but never picked us up again.

In a footnote it states:

During this action, Barb also released a large number of "pillenwurfer" decoys, essentially a giant bicarbonate tablet, which makes a lot of noise and sends up a cloud of bubbles that reflect active sonar.

This is also confirmed by Gene Fluckey's book "Thunder Below":

29 June 1945 Time 1334. "There go the sidethrowers again. Stand by." WHAM! WHAM! WHAM! WHAM! "All ahead one-third. Max, I can't hit him! How many evasion devices do we have on board? Bubblers, swim-out beacons. everything."
"Seventy-six."
"FIRE THEM ALL!"
"All?'
"I said all. I need them now, before he attacks again. We have no other weapons for these depths. Barb's going to leave here alive and kicking. Get cracking!"
"Aye!" Max and Chuck sped off.
"Jim, to delay the next attack until we get some evasion devices in the water, let's throw her a couple of full-speed knuckles. These will give her something to ping on until the beacons simulating a sub swim away from the tubes and make their submarine noises. We're only 5500 yards off the beach, so don't let us run aground."
"All ahead flank for 40 seconds, right full rudder."
Time 1338. "Sonar reports several other escorts joining the Terutsuki."
"All stop. Left full rudder. One minute."
Time 1339. "All ahead flank. Right full rudder."
Time 1340. Max returned breathlessly. "Captain, all five beacons are on their way and will be sounding off momentarily, as are the Pillenwurfer bubblers and gassers."
"Sonar reports there is so much noise in the water it has blanked out all targets. Sonar is useless."


Gus

[goose814]

I was doing some research into the US sub loses for the war and came up with the following:

Of the 52 subs that were lost:
10 were lost from unknown causes with some from possible mines
2 were lost from friendly fire (one bombed and one depth charged)
2 were lost from operational errors during training excercises
1 was rammed by a friendly escort
2 were sunk by their own circular-run torpedoes
4 ended up grounding and were scuttled
31 were lost from enemy action

Of the 31 that were lost due to enemy action:
17 were depth charged by escorts
5 were bombed by aircraft
2 were shelled by escorts
1 was shelled by shore batteries
1 was sunk by enemy submarine
1 was rammed by enemy merchant
3 were lost by mines
1 was shelled by shore batteries, bombed by aircraft, and depth charged by escorts.

The following was taken from the book "The Last Patrol" by Harry Holmes.


Gus

[Beery]

I think I'm going to put the decoys back into RFB. The only thing that's making me a bit reticent about doing so is the fact that I've not seen any evidence from early war subs. If someone could find some evidence of decoy use in 1942-43 that would be great.

[Sailor Steve]

We've all seen the movies of US subs ejecting all kinds of debris through the torpedo tubes. SH1 included it.

I'm pretty certain that the Americans never had any kind of actual decoys such as the German 'Bold', but on the other hand there's no provision for throwing out junk either. True or not, I say go for it!

[Bando]

Is it possible to make them active from 01/45?