US Politics Thread 2016-2020

[vienna]

Originally Posted by ikalugin

You do realise that this "dossier" was, ehem, made up slander?

You do realize, ahem, several of the allegations have been substantiated by the FBI who have contacted and interviewed the cited sources in the dossier, and you do realize, ahem, the corroborated information regarding Flynn in the dossier was the principal impetus for his resignation? The 'salacious' bits may be false; I doubt any of those sources will be willing to corroborate. The dossier has received serious scrutiny due to the fact the compiler is a respected former MI6 intelligence agent who has an excellent reputation within intelligence communities inside and outside the UK. He is not a flighty 'conspiracy nut' or tin-foil hatter; his reputation is probably the main reason anyone thought the matter deserved further investigation and, so far, the portions of the dossier the FBI have investigated have borne out the allegations; what the rest might pan out remains to be seen, but what has been made public does not bode well for many in Trump's circle and, possibly, for Trump himself. Where there's smoke, there's fire and this Trump/Kremlin situation has all the earmarks of a major blaze. Perhaps Trump can deflect and distract from the situation by finally appointing a special prosecutor to investigate Hillary Clinton's e-mail servers, one of the many campaign promises he has failed to act upon. Desperate times call for desperate measures...

... ahem ...



<O>

[Onkel Neal]

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

And if you ever want to see chaos, spend a little time in a hospital emergency room, a police dispatching area, a hurricane disaster site, a battle during war. People of Trump's management style thrive there. People of orderly and polite management styles cry and quit.

Look at the results. Do not judge people based on what others say, or whether they are different from you. That is what conservatives are falsely characterized to do.

Also, those of you who smell blood in the water better look closely at Flynn's career. He's a multiple times Obama appoinee and was Obama's man when the alleged impropriety took place. The trail leads to Obama, not Trump.

And Oberon, you're smart enough to know this because your "analogy" was purposeful distortion and distraction, but for the benefit of others, there is a very large difference between saying an effective person has a chaotic management style and saying that every person with a chaotic management style is effective, even your hero.

Well, Trump was smart enough to win the nomination and the election. People (me included) said he wouldn't achieve anything more than comic relief in the political arena.

[Catfish]

I guess we were all a bit surprised, and then concerned, about T.'s election.

Well now Trump said he wants Russia/Putin to give the Crimea back to the Ukraine
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-us...-idUSKBN15T2IY

[Onkel Neal]

I'm still trying to accept the reality. Every time I hear "President Trump" I laugh. Then shake my head slowly. WTH?

Oh well, if he keeps his campaign promises, I can live with it.

[Onkel Neal]

Also, I want to applaud all of you for keeping this thread in control. Amazing that we can have so many people with differing opinions and still retain a civil discussion.

[vienna]

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

...
Also, those of you who smell blood in the water better look closely at Flynn's career. He's a multiple times Obama appoinee and was Obama's man when the alleged impropriety took place. The trail leads to Obama, not Trump.
...

So, basically, you're saying Trump exhibited extremely poor judgement in appointing Flynn in the first place? With this I agree; extremely poor judgement and extremely poor leadership: why, after being told about Flynn's transgressions, including lying to the FBI, a Federal felony, weeks before, did Trump not act and demand the resignation of Flynn immediately? Did Trump wish to avoid yet another embarrassment to his administration and to himself, personally? Not a shining example of leadership skills. It should be also noted that while Obama did have Flynn in his administration, he also did not hesitate to fire Flynn from the DIA Directorship when Flynn flaked and Obama took heat for what was probably the right action. And your statement Flynn "was Obama's man when the alleged impropriety took place" is highly suspect if only for the fact Obama fired Flynn in 2014 and the "impropriety" occurred in 2016 making your claim a broad bit of a reach...

So, with all of Flynn's flaw's you note in your post, including his being "Obama's man", Trump made a 'genius' decision and appointed Flynn to the extremely sensitive post of National Security Advisor; he even made the following glowing praise in his official statement about Flynn's appointment:

“I am pleased that Lieutenant General Michael Flynn will be by my side as we work to defeat radical Islamic terrorism, navigate geopolitical challenges and keep Americans safe at home and abroad,” Trump said in a statement. “General Flynn is one of the country’s foremost experts on military and intelligence matters and he will be an invaluable asset to me and my administration.”

Yeah, Trump really showed his ability to judge character and to thoroughly vet those with whom he would work most closely and personally. If Trump was stupid enough to appoint someone you yourself disparage for being "Obama's man", just how much can we trust any of his other decisions? You can try to deflect and distract by trying to lay some questionable blame on Obama, but this particular buffoonish boondoggle rests at the feet of Trump and Trump alone...



<O>

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

And if you ever want to see chaos, spend a little time in a hospital emergency room, a police dispatching area, a hurricane disaster site, a battle during war. People of Trump's management style thrive there. People of orderly and polite management styles cry and quit.

Look at the results. Do not judge people based on what others say, or whether they are different from you. That is what conservatives are falsely characterized to do.

Also, those of you who smell blood in the water better look closely at Flynn's career. He's a multiple times Obama appoinee and was Obama's man when the alleged impropriety took place. The trail leads to Obama, not Trump.

And Oberon, you're smart enough to know this because your &quot;analogy&quot; was purposeful distortion and distraction, but for the benefit of others, there is a very large difference between saying an effective person has a chaotic management style and saying that every person with a chaotic management style is effective, even your hero.

I look at the results indeed, Robbins. I see a lot of glorious actionism and big mouthed words, poses on pictures, decrees that miss their point and have mostly no lasting durability, I see scandals, first cabinet member already gone after not even one month, plenty of reason to fear nepotism, a president in repeated confusion and lacking information, I see CHAOS. And lots of dilletantism. Trump misleads the people with loud words and glorious gesture. He blends. And in that he indeed excels, he found the tone that hits the marks. But it all is empty symbolism so far. Trump currently learns that reality is far more complex than his Hollywood-script has revealed to him that it would be. - Enjoy the show, you seem to enjoy it a lot. So do I, I get perfectly entertained. But one thing is certain: this show will not last forever, and the bill with the costs presented at the end will scare you, and us, and everybody. Except maybe the Trumps' businesses and that of their friends. Trenches in American society are deepening. - I currently read that book I referred to twice now, on comparing the situation between the EU today, and the decline of the first roman republic. Brilliant book, btw, that guy is SMART, in capital letters. What has not been objct of his analysis is the parallel between the Us today and the fall of the Roman republic - and while reading the book now, I currently think "USA" as often as I think "EU". The kind of conflicts in the era between Sulla and Octavian (Augustus), and their parallels to our present, are breathtaking, so are the parallels in both era's roots and origins, the social conflicts, the political rivalries, the nature and identity of the rivalling factions and families. Stunning, absolutely stunning. We have been there, we have been through all this before , nothing in our present's political events is new.

[MaDef]

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

And if you ever want to see chaos, spend a little time in a hospital emergency room, a police dispatching area, a hurricane disaster site, a battle during war. People of Trump's management style thrive there. People of orderly and polite management styles cry and quit.

Look at the results. Do not judge people based on what others say, or whether they are different from you. That is what conservatives are falsely characterized to do.

Also, those of you who smell blood in the water better look closely at Flynn's career. He's a multiple times Obama appoinee and was Obama's man when the alleged impropriety took place. The trail leads to Obama, not Trump.

And Oberon, you're smart enough to know this because your "analogy" was purposeful distortion and distraction, but for the benefit of others, there is a very large difference between saying an effective person has a chaotic management style and saying that every person with a chaotic management style is effective, even your hero.

Has anybody considered that Flynn/Russians is/was Trumps stalking horse?

[vienna]

Funny take on the Flynn situation by Stephen Colbert:







<O>

[ikalugin]

Originally Posted by vienna

You do realize, ahem, several of the allegations have been substantiated by the FBI who have contacted and interviewed the cited sources in the dossier, and you do realize, ahem, the corroborated information regarding Flynn in the dossier was the principal impetus for his resignation?

Which doesn't make the dosier valid. Regarding the parts that (according to you) are substantiated by the FBI, would you care to enlighten me regarding their content?

The principal impetus for Flynn's resignation was the leaked data, with the leak being both dammaging (to US foreighn policy) and motivated by internal political factors. But I guess the next time Democratic party tries to pull of something like the Iran deal, or threaten 3rd parties with the use of strategic offensive weapons that would be conveniently leaked.

The report itself does not pass any scrutiny (did you even read it?) nor is it's author authorative as you claim.

[Mr Quatro]

Originally Posted by vienna

So, basically, you're saying Trump exhibited extremely poor judgement in appointing Flynn in the first place? With this I agree; extremely poor judgement and extremely poor leadership: why, after being told about Flynn's transgressions, including lying to the FBI, a Federal felony, weeks before, did Trump not act and demand the resignation of Flynn immediately? Did Trump wish to avoid yet another embarrassment to his administration and to himself, personally? Not a shining example of leadership skills. It should be also noted that while Obama did have Flynn in his administration, he also did not hesitate to fire Flynn from the DIA Directorship when Flynn flaked and Obama took heat for what was probably the right action. And your statement Flynn "was Obama's man when the alleged impropriety took place" is highly suspect if only for the fact Obama fired Flynn in 2014 and the "impropriety" occurred in 2016 making your claim a broad bit of a reach...

So, with all of Flynn's flaw's you note in your post, including his being "Obama's man", Trump made a 'genius' decision and appointed Flynn to the extremely sensitive post of National Security Advisor; he even made the following glowing praise in his official statement about Flynn's appointment:

Yeah, Trump really showed his ability to judge character and to thoroughly vet those with whom he would work most closely and personally. If Trump was stupid enough to appoint someone you yourself disparage for being "Obama's man", just how much can we trust any of his other decisions? You can try to deflect and distract by trying to lay some questionable blame on Obama, but this particular buffoonish boondoggle rests at the feet of Trump and Trump alone...

<O>

Remember in the bible when the big storm came up on the Med when Jonah was trying to run away from God's orders to go to Nineveh and the fisherman threw Jonah overboard to save the boat?

I think that's what happen

but in this case the storm is not over yet and more fishermen might be thrown in

[ikalugin]

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/...rc=twsrc%5Etfw

Wow, that normalisation stage we normally have when a new POTUS gets elected was awfully short.

[Schroeder]

Originally Posted by ikalugin

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/...rc=twsrc%5Etfw

Wow, that normalisation stage we normally have when a new POTUS gets elected was awfully short.

And here I thought Hillary wasn't voted for because she was saber rattling against Russia....

[ikalugin]

Originally Posted by Schroeder

And here I thought Hillary wasn't voted for because she was saber rattling against Russia....

I mean that sort of thing happened with Obama and Bush and Clinton, but this time it was pretty damn quick.

[Rockin Robbins]

Originally Posted by Skybird

I look at the results indeed, Robbins. I see a lot of glorious actionism and big mouthed words, poses on pictures, decrees that miss their point and have mostly no lasting durability, I see scandals, first cabinet member already gone after not even one month, plenty of reason to fear nepotism, a president in repeated confusion and lacking information, I see CHAOS. And lots of dilletantism. Trump misleads the people with loud words and glorious gesture. He blends. And in that he indeed excels, he found the tone that hits the marks. But it all is empty symbolism so far. Trump currently learns that reality is far more complex than his Hollywood-script has revealed to him that it would be. - Enjoy the show, you seem to enjoy it a lot. So do I, I get perfectly entertained. But one thing is certain: this show will not last forever, and the bill with the costs presented at the end will scare you, and us, and everybody. Except maybe the Trumps' businesses and that of their friends. Trenches in American society are deepening. - I currently read that book I referred to twice now, on comparing the situation between the EU today, and the decline of the first roman republic. Brilliant book, btw, that guy is SMART, in capital letters. What has not been objct of his analysis is the parallel between the Us today and the fall of the Roman republic - and while reading the book now, I currently think "USA" as often as I think "EU". The kind of conflicts in the era between Sulla and Octavian (Augustus), and their parallels to our present, are breathtaking, so are the parallels in both era's roots and origins, the social conflicts, the political rivalries, the nature and identity of the rivalling factions and families. Stunning, absolutely stunning. We have been there, we have been through all this before , nothing in our present's political events is new.

Trump is certainly not guaranteed to be successful. However, characterizing Flynn's resignation as a takedown of a Trump crony is totally false. Flynn is a Democrat. He was appointed three or four times by Obama and merely retained by Trump. Flynn in no way identifies with Trump, nor is he a Trump supporter, nor is he or was he any part of the inner workings (or even the outer workings) of the Trump administration. He was an Obama appointee. Trump, perhaps unwisely, you can never tell when someone will jump the shark, reappointed him. Remember that Obama reappointed Secretary of Defense, Robert Gates. If Robert Gates had been fired for employing an illegal alien, would that have reflected badly on President Obama? Of course not. And this case is the same, having no reflection on President Trump except in the minds of the inventive press, seeking anything, even nothing, to bring down Trump. In their minds the end justifies the means and they will go to any length to eliminate Trump. For that reason a great deal of scepticism is proper in reading their polemics.

For the time being, since the press no longer reports news (journalism is dead) and is merely an advocate of the left, the Trump is in a defensive position. They don't need to stay there, they need to act. They need to triangulate the expat corporations whose money is overseas in countries seeking to snag their assets with empty cities who have lost ther economic cores and with citizens of those rotten cities who have no honest way to make a living. If he can make a tough deal with those corporations to come home to the rotten cities and employ those who live there now, and if he accomplishes nothing else for eight years, he will be the most successful president since Reagan and Franklin Roosevelt.

There's no guarantee of anything, either good or bad. There IS a guarantee that the left and their willing accomplices in the former press will fight anything Trump does, good or bad. Trump is going to have to forget being nice and just do things without approval from those who would not approve a cure for cancer if it came from the wrong place.

As for linking Octavian and Sulla with the demise of the Roman Republic, don't make me laugh. Julius killed the Roman Republic long before Octavian and Sulla ever had those parties with their private armies that make any comparisons of their dealings with any modern events a farce. There IS no parallel. The times were too different. Nobody fights each other with private armies any more. No economy is entirely dependent on slaves for its worth any more. Trying to make analogies between the Roman Empire, Roman Republic and European Union or American politics is just smoke and mirrors with no lessons to learn, nothing real to contemplate.

Rome was a despotic entity which prospered due to slaves produced by military conquest. No such entity (thank God) exists today, anywhere.