Destroyers Discussion (getting rid of pin point drops)

[Redwine]

Originally Posted by Ducimus

On the subject of pinpoint drops...


Has anyone noticed that AI sonar (passave and active) have a limit as to how deep they will go? (300 meters)

Going deep with a sub is basicaly, using and old phrase , "flying under the radar". Adjusting these values to 400 or 500 meters, unless its my imagination (and it could very well be), excepting hedge hogs, they're aim seems to be absolute crap. Even if i sit there at a dead stop. All other values for ai sonar being default.

Yes, -300 is the limit by default.

The use of a limit was discused time ago, to simulate a thermal layer or a behavior similar.

Sadly we have not thermal layers modelated, almost nobody found anithing about them.

Just another choice, but you will be completely undetected under that value, it can reduce the game play interest.... :hmm:

[Ducimus]

Originally Posted by Redwine

Yes, -300 is the limit by default.

The use of a limit was discused time ago, to simulate a thermal layer or a behavior similar.

Sadly we have not thermal layers modelated, almost nobody found anithing about them.

Just another choice, but you will be completely undetected under that value, it can reduce the game play interest.... :hmm:

I first noticed something was up when i was testing the AI on the U505 mission. I sat there about about 325-350 meters watching the depth charges for accuracy and i noticed right before they got to my depth they just disappared. Another big hint was when i just stopped getting contact information on the map.

I tried changing this, but their accuracy only seemed to get WORSE. TO me diving deep and pushing the boat to the absolute limit to try and get under a DD attack is half the thrill. "Deep cheif... yes deeper."
But being absolutely untouchable just kills the thrill.

I guess its a matter of scale. Longer DC drops, larger explosions,....shorter DC drops smaller explosions. Its easier to scale back the Depth charge experience then it is to ramp it up, which is what ive been trying to do. Too many AI adjustments are required. Too much work.

[Col7777]

What about the times when going to that depth isn't possible, I've often been in 60mts so I can't go deep?

[Redwine]

Originally Posted by Ducimus

I first noticed something was up when i was testing the AI on the U505 mission. I sat there about about 325-350 meters watching the depth charges for accuracy and i noticed right before they got to my depth they just disappared.

Many objects in the sim has a max Depth value, it is the max depth at wich the game will medeled the objects, and then they disapears. Submarines was set at -300.
When TimeTraveller Crush Depth Mod was released, to increase this value up to 500m was needed, if not subs was capable to dive beyond the render max depth :P

Originally Posted by Ducimus

I tried changing this, but their accuracy only seemed to get WORSE. TO me diving deep and pushing the boat to the absolute limit to try and get under a DD attack is half the thrill. "Deep cheif... yes deeper."
But being absolutely untouchable just kills the thrill.

Yes, that problem was discused when TT Crush Depth Mod was released.
Some people try increasing the Depth Charges fall spedd to compensate that accuracy. Plus may be that was the reason why the dev team dont modeled the historical crush depths.....

That behavior you descrived was from real life, most part of the war, depth charges was limited to a determined depth for explosion, and sub was capables to dive depper, they just push the sub too deep, and wait paying chess the DDs become empty of depth charges.

I like that behavior, it maintain you submerged, and submerged you can not sink any thing.

I like too those 30 hours hunt where you need to sacpe to not become empty of oxigen and batteries. I obtain this behaviur with CB's DES% V2 Mod, and DC Lethal Radius Mod.

But some people dont like these behaviors, and think they reduce game play interest.

Originally Posted by Ducimus

I guess its a matter of scale. Longer DC drops, larger explosions,....shorter DC drops smaller explosions. Its easier to scale back the Depth charge experience then it is to ramp it up, which is what ive been trying to do. Too many AI adjustments are required. Too much work.

Sorry my bad english, i am not sure if i understand well this part.

Originally Posted by Col7777

What about the times when going to that depth isn't possible, I've often been in 60mts so I can't go deep?

Certain.... many times i have damage, and reach the max depth is imposible, it is the good part, maintain sthealt, be silent, hit and run..... slowly and silent, if they catch you and your sub receive some damage..... you cant go deep.

Normally i use crash dive depth, 70 m, and 120 m.
I note DDs precision dont falls too much if i go too deep, but damage and flooding be more dangerous when too deep.

[CB..]

Dulcimus
have to admit i've never been able to push a sub that deep with-out crushing--but i haven't taken advantage of the crush depth mods--

you'd have to perhaps balance your crush depth with the 300 metres sensor limit- or experiment with setting the sensor limit deeper one or the other -- bit of a "no-brainer" really that one--and at the end of the trip your not going to be sinking too many merchants at 300 metres plus--(as Red says)--so if the DD's have forced you down that deep then they've done their job--any possible adjustments to make the DC's more accurate at that depth is going to really bite you in the butt extremely hard if you get DC'd at 100 metres--there are times when you just have to use your imagination--me i'd adjust the crush depth to around 270<-->310 metres and re-create the tension that way---at those sorts of depths if your really after gameplay-- the difference is very minor--your rarely going to get nailed at those sorts of depths so any tension is practically illusionary anyway--which is what your saying i know-- but the only rational answer is to reduce your crush depth and use a bit of imagination ---i prefer the stock crush depths i must admit--not realistic perhaps but if it's a choice between realism and gameplay --i'll take gameplay every-time--both no doubt would be nice but there you go--realism in simulations is a fairly esoteric concept anyway!

[Ducimus]

Originally Posted by Col7777

What about the times when going to that depth isn't possible, I've often been in 60mts so I can't go deep?

Call me chicken but i avoid the engilsh channel like the plauge

Originally Posted by Redwine

you'd have to perhaps balance your crush depth with the 300 metres sensor limit- or experiment with setting the sensor limit deeper one or the other

Yeah i tried setting the AI's passive and active sonars to -500 (500 meters.) Their accuracy sucked. Nowhere NEAR me. It could very well be distancet traveled at 2 knots at 350 meters, vs how long it takes a DC to reach that depth is just too much of a difference so they will ALWAYS be off the mark unless you set the sink rate faster. Doing that however, if you get caught in the shallower depths your really hosed.

Originally Posted by Redwine

Sorry my bad english, i am not sure if i understand well this part.

To keep a certain level of danger:

-at deeper depths you might have to increase sink rate OR expolsion radius. But you also have to adjust and test changes to the AI since they're clueless past 300 meters. Otherwise charges will always fall harmlessly to your stern presenting no danger at all as long as you creep forward.

- at stock depths all you have to do is decrease the explosion radius to keep the same level of danger since DC's can reach you much more quickly and hence are more accurate.

[Kaleunt]

In game, all submarines have a maximum depth of -300m,it's only
their crush depht witch change, depending the type of uboat.
As you can see the maximum detection depht of all sonars is
equal to the maximum depht of of your uboat. Also the depht charges
are generically modelled, only one type for all the war! This generic
model as a sinking rate of 3 meters/seconds, you can't input varying
sinking rates.

[timetraveller]

Hi Guys,

About the maximum sensors limit of 300 meters depth-

I did a search on this figure and it is defined in numerous places in AI_Sensors.dat as well as Sensors.dat.

Examples, AI_Sensors.dat hydrophone and sonar are set to -300. I bet by lowering that value you might not be able to evade it when diving to more than 300 meters.

The tweak file AI_Sensors_dat.txt already has the ability to change these values. Might be worth a try if anybody has interest in testing it.

TT

[HEMISENT]

TT
I was just thinking about that. I'll give it a shot in your mini tweaker. I'm like some others tho and have never pushed my boat to that depth level, I usually hang at around 160 - 200m. More later

CB
I have changed everything over to your current setup per you recent post. Works pretty much as advertised except I still am experiencing no pinging/active searching by escorts. Is the pinging dependent on crew rating, type of ship currently involved, ship speed, random ???
I'm lost on this one. I'm testing campaigns only.

[CB..]

Originally Posted by HEMISENT

TT
I was just thinking about that. I'll give it a shot in your mini tweaker. I'm like some others tho and have never pushed my boat to that depth level, I usually hang at around 160 - 200m. More later

CB
I have changed everything over to your current setup per you recent post. Works pretty much as advertised except I still am experiencing no pinging/active searching by escorts. Is the pinging dependent on crew rating, type of ship currently involved, ship speed, random ???
I'm lost on this one. I'm testing campaigns only.

i have my crewrating set quite low in the campaign.rnd

i have all the DD's at Crewrating=2

if you have yours higher then i reckon increasing slightly your

Noise factor in the hydrophones section of the sim.cfg should encourage them to use their sonar--

or lowering a little further the max rpm for the electric engines with the mini tweaker--

they only seem to switch to active sonar when they aren't getting any usefull hydrophone info--so it's i believe a matter of balancing the effectiveness of the hydrophones with the crewrating noise and or max rpm of your subs electrics to create the moment when they decide to switch to active--

they use their active pretty much as normal for me with the crewrating at 2

it's a matter of tinkering a little

////////////////

TimeTraveller!!

i wonder if there's a bouyancy entry for the u-boats--?

as they sink when major flooding is going on i was wondering if this was something that could be tweaked to give very very slight sinking when the boat is undamaged as this might have the boat sinking whilst submerged and at all stop---or force periodic depth changes to stabilise the boat--

i'm hoping of course this doesn't come into play whilst on the surface--and that's calculated slightly differently?

[Marhkimov]

CB..,

You are using crewrating=2???

I thought you were the one with DD's that were too dumb to look for you. How did you manage to make them "smarter" with a 2 rating?

But the only problem I see with using a 2 rating is that surface ships have horrible gun accuracy. You could probably flank speed right up to a battleship and sink it, crash dive and get away.

Hmm, I hope you don't ever see a battleship...

[CB..]

Originally Posted by marhkimov

CB..,

You are using crewrating=2???

I thought you were the one with DD's that were too dumb to look for you. How did you manage to make them "smarter" with a 2 rating?

But the only problem I see with using a 2 rating is that surface ships have horrible gun accuracy. You could probably flank speed right up to a battleship and sink it, crash dive and get away.

Hmm, I hope you don't ever see a battleship...

well you'd just be forced to read the entire thread to understand that--
gun accuracy can of course be adjusted seperately--

[timetraveller]

Originally Posted by CB..

TimeTraveller!!

i wonder if there's a bouyancy entry for the u-boats--?

as they sink when major flooding is going on i was wondering if this was something that could be tweaked to give very very slight sinking when the boat is undamaged as this might have the boat sinking whilst submerged and at all stop---or force periodic depth changes to stabilise the boat--

i'm hoping of course this doesn't come into play whilst on the surface--and that's calculated slightly differently?

Very interesting. I wonder....

I'll have a look around. Could be I missed a value or 2....hehe

TT

[Marhkimov]

Originally Posted by CB..

well you'd just be forced to read the entire thread to understand why i'm using crewrating=2

I was afraid of that...

[CB..]

Originally Posted by timetraveller

Very interesting. I wonder....

I'll have a look around. Could be I missed a value or 2....hehe

TT

cheers TT