Destroyers Discussion (getting rid of pin point drops)

[CB..]

Originally Posted by timetraveller

No, I haven't. But it might be possible to up the max RPMs in the sub's SIM file, then also change the speed settings for the engine telegraph in its CFG file. Make AheadSlow very small. I am betting this will keep the RPMs down at that speed. With the max RPMs, say for a VII-C set up to 600, maybe this will work. .05 for AheadSlow might bring the RPMs to 30. Other RPMs at higher speeds will (hopefully) be higher than before and cause greater chance for detection. Worth a try if you guys haven't done it already.

And of course this is in case the RPMDetLevel change goes nowhere.

TT

VII-C .CFG file example-

Original:
[EngineProperties]
AllStop=0.00
AheadSlow=0.40
AheadOneThird=0.57
AheadStandard=0.80
AheadFull=0.94
AheadFlank=1.00

New:
Original:
[EngineProperties]
AllStop=0.00
AheadSlow=0.05
AheadOneThird=0.57
AheadStandard=0.80
AheadFull=0.94
AheadFlank=1.00

outstanding nice one TT

if it all hangs together i reckon that takes care of the lot!!!



COL!!! i think the sytem works of the engine revs per minute rather than the actual speed your travelling at--- so increasing the max RPM in TT's minitweaker or if you want to be a little less easy to detect then decrease the max RPM -- then you adjust the speed at 1/3 standard etc thru the cfg file as TT says to get a good balance---

i aint a terribly good skipper Col-- ive been testing all the time so i've been using the external view a lot--first time i tried without the external view i got nailed---i'm actually going to reduce the max rpm for the sub to hopefully lower the chance i get detected and see how that goes---if all these possibilites have an effect there's an almost limitless degree of flexibility
fingers crossed---if the DD type and or side entrys have an effect as well then we have a tool kit that should do just about anything we need--

[gouldjg]

One last thing,

I have been looking at the debris.dat

Near the bottom you will find all the other special effects in the game.

I cannot see any reference to noise here though so this may be futile.

If you remember, I managed to get the oil spot connected to my sub conning tower as a test and it worked.

Would be cool to find any ways of adding a noise factor to these DC splashes but maybe a bit too hopefull.

I am presuming it would be too much work to add rpm to dc splashes and then use the duration similar to what controls the bold.

Time for bed and to stop dreaming.

Scrap that,

We will end up with carpet bombing effects.

[Gammel]

Very interesting reading here...
Sorry for just popping in.

Timetraveller, your tweaker is awsome and a reason for me to come back to the game!! Even someone like me is now able to modify files i never was able to deal with.
I just managed to make the Battleships open fire at realistic ranges.

About that to accurate DC dropping...
I use Jungmans tweaked Ai_Sensors file with good results. It´s now possible for me to survive U505...
Great idea CB to use the "Detectometer" for testing...

Persisting problem for me is when the DD´s got your position the rush in like sportcars and place the charges direct into your conning tower.

So how about lowering the Depthcharges accuracy, not the detection abilitys of the DD´s?
Anyone tried to alter the "depth precision" value in the depthcharge.sim file?

Especially the charges are always placed at the exact deep, as far as i know it was hard to detect the subs exact deep in ww2.

2. thing to change would be the unrealistic ship acceleration, but for many reasons that will be hard an time expensive work...
Please excuse my english

[gouldjg]

I have just been looking at the italian ship mod thread.

Marki

Has been able to add different angles of DC racks at rear. I have dropped my hint as to the benefit it would make if we had DC wider angles so they went down sides of sub rather than on top of.

With Depth precision,

Try hedgehogs and 300 or 400 depths and then 300 or 400 precision. You will get premature exploisions on 30% but still get hit. I have not fully tested if this has any side effects like poor aiming though.

With DC

People tend to stick at about 25-35 and you get some random behaiviour.

I went to 100 and the DD's blew their reer ends off.

Good luck

[Gammel]

did some testing with the depth precision value in the 505 mission...

i got good results with 75...
game feels now like the surface skipper has some problems to get the exact deep of the submarine...

[Redwine]

Originally Posted by Gammel

Very interesting reading here...
Sorry for just popping in.

Come in, welcome to the party

Originally Posted by Gammel

Persisting problem for me is when the DD´s got your position the rush in like sportcars and place the charges direct into your conning tower.

So how about lowering the Depthcharges accuracy, not the detection abilitys of the DD´s?
Anyone tried to alter the "depth precision" value in the depthcharge.sim file?

I think so this will not solve your problem, i was with same problem at first. Increasing depth precision value, they make the launch more spead in depth, this help because not every depth charges will explode at your depth, good and helps to survive, but ...

May be better if you tweak the sensors angles, horizontal and vertical angles.

They droops the depth charges on you head, beacause in example the pasive sensor can sense you up to 170 degrees.

0* is just up to the sky, 90* is just at front of the ship, bow, and 180 is just down. With a 170* and a short minimun range by default .........DDs can detect you up to they are over your head.

Try a max bearing of 120Left-120Right for pasive, and 15left-15Right for active.

A beam depth with min elevation 80, max elevation 120 for both pasive and active. (make later little diferent adjust in max elevation for early and later sensors, in example 110 for early and 120 for later sensors)

Try a minimun range of 50 for active and 200 for pasive.

At first i have your problem, now i have the inverse, they droops the depth charges at my rear zone near the stern.

If you want my actual files to see behavior i can send them to you..... but i am having a little problem, i have short detection ranges.

May be real, but i like to rise up DDs detection ranges.

My files a very independant of weather factor, and i am very sthealt (green) at silent running.

[HEMISENT]

Originally Posted by gouldjg

Maybe worth a try if a DE was the leader of the convoys or are they already in campaign games.

Don't think DD's or DE's are scripted in as leaders in convoys as too often I have torpedoed the lead merchant ship and the convoy then mills around or stops completely. Once the convoy loses its guide ship everything goes to hell really fast. It's as if the merchants have lost the one vessel that knew where the next waypoint is. . Never took out a warship in a convoy and had this happen. There was a discussion about this posted about a month or so ago.

[Marhkimov]

I think our only way to fix DD behavior is through the hard-coded files themselves. We keep looking for a simple way out by changing the effectiveness of their weapons and equipment, but I don't see how it will work.

For example:

By the default behavior of DD's, I'm going to assume that they are programmed to drop depth charges whenever they lose contact with the u-boat. That is why by default the minimum angle was set for 170. Because when the u-boat enters into an angle >170, the DD is programmed to drop his depth charges, and by that time he will be right above your head.

That's the problem with changing it to a lower value, i.e. 150. When the u-boat enters into angle >150, the depth charges will fall, but obviously the DD will be waaay behind you if his minimum angle is 150.

Do you guys follow?

So yeah, nerfing sensors to 150 will make him lose you, yes, but it will also screw with his ability to successfully drop DC's on you... And I have a feeling that is not what we want.

And this is just a small example. Other "nerfs" probably produce other minor side effects too.



I'm hoping someone will crack the behavior hard-coding. It's the only way...

[Redwine]

Originally Posted by marhkimov

I think our only way to fix DD behavior is through the hard-coded files themselves. We keep looking for a simple way out by changing the effectiveness of their weapons and equipment, but I don't see how it will work.

For example:

By the default behavior of DD's, I'm going to assume that they are programmed to drop depth charges whenever they lose contact with the u-boat. That is why by default the minimum angle was set for 170. Because when the u-boat enters into an angle >170, the DD is programmed to drop his depth charges, and by that time he will be right above your head.

That's the problem with changing it to a lower value, i.e. 150. When the u-boat enters into angle >150, the depth charges will fall, but obviously the DD will be waaay behind you if his minimum angle is 150.

Do you guys follow?

So yeah, nerfing sensors to 150 will make him lose you, yes, but it will also screw with his ability to successfully drop DC's on you... And I have a feeling that is not what we want.

And this is just a small example. Other "nerfs" probably produce other minor side effects too.



I'm hoping someone will crack the behavior hard-coding. It's the only way...

I am not agree Marhkimov....

I tryed with values reduced down to 100/105/110, and they droops the dc at good place.

The reduction in angle only make they losse contact with you early or later, then they stops to make corrections into their curse to follow you.

For that i was useing 200 min range in both sensors and was enforced to reduce the value for active to 50, because they never ram my tower.

In other way..... if they launch the dc when are at 170* at side of you, the dc never will hit you.
The reduction in angles make them losse contact and stops to make coreections, then the dc always drops at back of you, in a side attack, i think so..... due to that the dev. team had set those high angles, but in this way they become Ubber DDs.

[HEMISENT]

Question I think for CB.
Trying out a campaign mission set in 1943. Being hunted by a single C class DD
I keep playing a scenario saving it then making a change and replaying same scenario for comparison.
Using your Sim.cfg setup I went back to default AI.DAT file to try something. Looking in Sea folder the C class uses the 123p, 128p & 138p hydrophones depending on year(I'm assuming these are the passive sensors). I'm playing with the minimum ranges and right now I'm at 750 also changed the AI_hydrophone to 750(from your 1000) to see what happens. I did not tinker with the 123a & 128a(active sensors?) do these need changing also?

DD is less aggressive but just as relentless as your @ 1000 setting. My stealth icon goes green when inside 750-800m yet DD will slowly meander over to my general area sort of siffing around(meter still green) When he's about 200m distance he will kick it up, point straight for my position and drop a few DC's generally right on me not pin point but close enough then slowly wanders away. At no time has the DD pinged me, the stealth icon stays green and I am deep at SR. Seems changing the min range stops the active pinging. I wouldn't have a problem as he knows generally where I am except he's not pinging so how can the AI know exactly where I am.

I'm probably wasting my time but I'm just trying to get a handle on how one set of sensors affects a given ship in a given situation.

[Marhkimov]

Redwine, so you're saying we just need to find the happy-medium between uber and dumb DD's?

Man, it's so much easier said than done...


Anyways, keep up the good work guys! I am totally lost when I enter this thread...

Cheers!
Marhkimov.

[Redwine]

Originally Posted by marhkimov

Redwine, so you're saying we just need to find the happy-medium between uber and dumb DD's?

Man, it's so much easier said than done...


Anyways, keep up the good work guys! I am totally lost when I enter this thread...

Cheers!
Marhkimov.

I done that, of course for my taste....

I need to rise up a little bit the dummies, they do not detect my scope by radar, in example in Happy Times, and Brahman, they are blind, it is similar than in stock settings, but i like a happy medium as you say.

I rise up settings of early radars but no way........ clase C and J looks very bad radar users, they looks good with sonars, even those wich has not active sonars like Flower and Clase C, but with radar they are nule, they only react or shoot my scope when it is in sight.

Instead, Buckley and Evarts works too god with their radars.....

May be real, for it that age was called "Happy Time" but i want a little bit more action at early times.

[Marhkimov]

MAybe you guys should just swap sonar and hydrophone equipment?

Just go into the equipment file of ships and replace the "suspect" equipment by one that works better. I can't remember who said it, but someone said that the American sonars were uber? I dunno. Maybe just swap it with a British one.

EDIT: oh, hehe. I think Redwine said that... ^Previous post


Hey, that's an idea. If you want to test a certain sonar or hydrophone, you can just replace it in all DD's or DE's. Then hop into campaign mode and test away... Or has someone already thought of that?

[Redwine]

Originally Posted by marhkimov

MAybe you guys should just swap sonar and hydrophone equipment?

Just go into the equipment file of ships and replace the "suspect" equipment by one that works better. I can't remember who said it, but someone said that the American sonars were uber? I dunno. Maybe just swap it with a British one.

EDIT: oh, hehe. I think Redwine said that... ^Previous post


Hey, that's an idea. If you want to test a certain sonar or hydrophone, you can just replace it in all DD's or DE's. Then hop into campaign mode and test away... Or has someone already thought of that?

Yes, is a good idea, but i put it away almost yet, because some considerations.

Why for ? Imagine a third party mission, the bulider make it and looks at some dummy DDs, he says :

- Mmhh... they are so duumy, i will put 6 instead 3....... -

Then when you play the mission with 6 souposed dummy DDs, if you had replced their equipment into your installation, for new and more effective equipment....... then the mission with 6 of them will be a nightmare.

I am leting this as a last choice.

[Marhkimov]

Originally Posted by marhkimov

Just go into the equipment file of ships and replace the "suspect" equipment by one that works better

Ooops, that was a typo.

I meant replace it with one that is not as good. My bad...