Destroyers Discussion (getting rid of pin point drops)

[HEMISENT]

CB.
Regarding your latest settings one question about Escort CrewRatings= Are they set to random(stock) or all set equal or are you omitting them with ;

I'll change the wave settings back to yours and go from there
Plugging in right now to see what happens.

[Ducimus]

Well i think i found a setting l like, but the freakign misssion editor's ticking me off.

ANyway.
0.4 noise / 0.5 wave
1/3rd = red at 2700 -2800 meters
slow = red at 1800-1900 meters
slient = red at around 800-900 meters
1 or 1.5 knots under silent running =t red around 500 meters.

Cut us a min sonar distance hole and i think it might be good.
EDIT:
Nevermind, got mission to work.

[Redwine]

@ CB :

I tested your Sim.cfg lines, in Royal Flush mission, and they blast me out of the water with a cirurgical precision, even at silent runing and reducing down to 2 knts. :hmm:
(no decoys launched for test)

The matter is i have limited hydrophones and sonar beams. :hmm:

Do you still using crew rating removed ?
If not, you are playing very hard now, correct ?

[gouldjg]

Originally Posted by Redwine

@ gouldjg :

Agree with you it is incredible how the game changes behavior easy now.....

Another good mission to test is Royal Flush from "Ubbermom" LadyMC. There are two crew rating 4 and one crewrating 3 DDs.

There is a value which has a lot of influence in detection, it is wave factor, dont forget to play with this value, a little change make a big change in the game.

Decoys can be a help to shake a hard DD, we have how to tweak them easy now.

And the good thing on decoys, is they are a double edge knife, if you use them against an alone DD, when it passes over you, and you ener into its shadow sensor zone..... good, but if there are more DDs around there, the decoy can call them on you

Do you added aspect factor into Sim.cfg acives ?
May be it is considered by surface factor, but how do you do it ?

I take it you are also getting a drastic improvement of control on Active DD's.

I have yet to play with the waves etc but as soon as I start testing in rough weather, I am sure I may need to do tiny little adjustments here and there for balance.

With regards to aspect,

Either the sim.cfg shares some issues with the sensors cfg i.e. col777 mentioned the possibility earlier, or the dev team never applied aspect to DD sensor's.

My gut feeling is that there may be a relationship between the 2 files.

My action was to copy the line from sensors.cfg sonar and then paste it into sim.cfg sonar.

The value is the same but soon I will put a ridiculous number in its place and see if anything becomes apparrent.

If no change, then I am at the suspicion that the two files are shared for certain things, both for sub and for ship.

I just cannot see why the devs would put aspect into a hardly used sub sensor and then not apply it to a DD sensor which is one of the main things used in the game. :hmm: :hmm:

All in all, I am having a buzzing time in 505 jsut testing. As soon as I get the finer tuning done, I am going to start combining it all with a new damage model.

80 degree max bearing on actives seems to be just right for me though I may consider slightly nerfing the arc for the hydrophone at some point.

As far as DC's go,

I think it may be best to tweak the DC files for each year in game. It is simple to do by just making copies and storing untill needed in campaign.


Redwine,

How are you getting your desired Hydrophone ranges?

Are you going back to mixed ai crew or sticking with one type?

I like the idea about decoys and yes your right. Launching these at the wrong times is a very bad thing. Thats why some players thought DD was uber uber uber instead of just uber droppers. I have noticed it in game when in external.


@ Ducimus

Thats why I have avoided sim.cfg changes, beacuse it is so much more complicated.

I want to ever make tiny changes on that file as sonar seems to be working quite well with regards to max ranges.

Actually, why does sonar work quite well and hydro does not. Also the sub Hydro doees not reach the lenghs it should do either.

Remeber when I saw something refering to Hydro being useless in one of the files. I wonder if the devs had problems and scrapped it for a quick fix.

All speculation mind you

[CB..]

Originally Posted by Col7777

I just played a test mission using CB's CFG, best bit of fun for ages.
Thing is I have a complaint CB, are trying to kill me, I had to pause to get a stiff drink, my nerves a shattered?

Seriously though it was as you described CB, my stealth meter went from orange to red then 2 DD's made a charge and they hounded the life out of me.
I tried this and that but in the end I came a cropper, I may not be a good as you so I may need a minor tweak to give me a chance, but I like it very much.

he he!! cheers Col!!

remember i haven't tested this set up in single missions only in a proper campaign patrol---even MY DD's are a deadly bunch in single missions--but in campaign mode they have allways been 100% weaker--#

so you'll need to experiment with what suits single mission play as apposed to campaign play (it's not every ones cup of tea)

one tip for this set up is to go deep slow and use the decoys---because the close attacking DD's don't detect you it's all the distant DD's that do the detecting- the decoy is very effective


Heimisent my crewratings are all set to crewrating=2 and this is in campaign mode (there really IS a difference in AI performance in campaign mode than single missions --it's virtually a different game the AI IS much weaker in campaign mode)

Col perhaps lower your crewrating a bit and see if that helps or keep reducing the maximum range of the named hydrophones untill it "softens of" a bit-- if you leave the main generic AI_hydrophones max distance as it is then i think what will happen is that the sub monitor will stay orange for longer as it enters the max range for the AI_hydrophones sensor-- only turning red when you enter the max distance for the named hydrophones--this is going to be my next step


thanks to TT by the way for the great work!!

If not, you are playing very hard now, correct ?

RED!! i reckon this is down again to the much weaker DD's in the campaign mode than single missions - i'm no expert at evasion no way!!
it's the way the DD's are "watered down" in a career

i think we are all agreed this is true? it's certainly a very important consideration

[gouldjg]

@CB

Hi mate

Glad to hear your having a ball and getting your results.

Can I just ask,

Did you do a standard extension of max ranges for every passive sensor and then the main passive at the top named hydrophone?.

If so can you describe in more detail as to each change with regards to the max. I am aware you changed the min to get blind spots?.

Have you made big changes to waves or noise or have you left this standard?.

I want to start comparing soon, to see which is the main direction to go. I am blinkered into thinking max range changes are my key but also min range blind spots.

The main of this is being done in the ai_sensor_dat file.

Thanks

Jason

[Redwine]

Originally Posted by gouldjg

Redwine,

How are you getting your desired Hydrophone ranges?

Are you going back to mixed ai crew or sticking with one type?

I like the idea about decoys and yes your right. Launching these at the wrong times is a very bad thing. Thats why some players thought DD was uber uber uber instead of just uber droppers. I have noticed it in game when in external.

I dont touched them, all max ranges by default.
I take this way because i am sure they are affected by some atenuation by other factors, and if i am touching those factors, detection range will change continuously.

I note before, if i set values to extend max ranges too much, changing values as noise, waves, ranges, DDs become ubber at short ranges.

Theoretically i watch them into the map, into the dash lines, wich changes with your settings.

Any way, i think so, the long detection ranges must to be for radar and visual of course, and for hydrophones when run on diesel, or electric at full and flank.

But at electric standard, 1/3, you must to be detected only at short ranges.

At Low, Low plus Silent Running, and Low plus Silent Running diminuished speed 2 and 1 knot......... you must to be hard to be detected, even undetectable if you dont have the bad luck to be pinged.

Really the ranges to be detected and avoid to fall into dummy or ubber Dds is the challenge now.

[gouldjg]

Originally Posted by Redwine

I dont touched them, all max ranges by default.
I take this way because i am sure they are affected by some atenuation by other factors, and if i am touching those factors, detection range will change continuously.

I note before, if i set values to extend max ranges too much, changing values as noise, waves, ranges, DDs become ubber at short ranges.

Theoretically i watch them into the map, into the dash lines, wich changes with your settings.

Any way, i think so, the long detection ranges must to be for radar and visual of course, and for hydrophones when run on diesel, or electric at full and flank.

But at electric standard, 1/3, you must to be detected only at short ranges.

At Low, Low plus Silent Running, and Low plus Silent Running diminuished speed 2 and 1 knot......... you must to be hard to be detected, even undetectable if you dont have the bad luck to be pinged.

Really the ranges to be detected and avoid to fall into dummy or ubber Dds is the challenge now.

I am just going to kick up my game and see if I am infact kidding myself here when I am saying I think I have it sussed.

If by setting the max ranges upto (lets say) average of 13500 and do not touch sim.cfg at all.

Do you guys suspect I am getting detected even in silent running?.

I have yet to experience this. To me it seems to be working ok, but like you all say.

"Hard evidence is needed here".

It's best if I start backing my theory up a little here.

[Ducimus]

Ok i got varying weather conditions to work.

I cant say these are accurate, but their in the ballpark for 0.4 noise and 0.5 wave factors:

at 5 winds, and all other weather conditions being clear (IE clear calm day)

1/3rd = 2700-2800
slow = 1800-1900
Silent = 800-900
1 to 1.5 knots = 500 meters

At 15 winds and all other weather conditions being clear (IE clear, but windy day with whitecaps)

1/3rd = 1100-1200 range
slow = 700-800
Silent = dunno, got detected


At 15 winds, and max particpation, and overcast (storm):

1/3d = 1100
slow = 110-200
silent = he was right next to me beore the meter went red.


Frankly im thinking about enlarging the clear weather detection radius. Need to test at 7 knott winds and average conditions still. out of time at the moment.

EDIT: I should note that all of my tsting has b een at periscope depth. If it makes a difference if i went to 50 or 100 meters i dunno. Ive been using the periscope to mark my distances but in hindsight i might start using active sonar since i dont think it alerts the DD. Started using it under storm conditions cause the scope was usless and the DD didnt seem to mind :rotfl:

EDIT2:
I think the wave factor might reall be killing detection. My question now is which direction to push the wave factor so its less of an unfluence? Farther from zero or closer to zero?

I might give up soon, and just start using CB's settings, it sound intresting.

[Redwine]

Originally Posted by CB..

RED!! i reckon this is down again to the much weaker DD's in the campaign mode than single missions - i'm no expert at evasion no way!!
it's the way the DD's are "watered down" in a career

i think we are all agreed this is true? it's certainly a very important consideration

I am not sure if i understand well, my english is so bad, but i really dont have too much experience against Dds in campaign, in campaign i always run away from DDs prior them detect me, if posible i dont let them to detect me, and if on risk i forget the attack.

In sigle missions i become as Dr Jeckyl and Mr Hyde, i put flank speed, rise my scope, some times i shoot them with my deck gun to ensure they know i am there........... .......to provocate them, and enjoy evading them.

But when egage a convoy i was enforced to evade them in campaign, not often, but i done many times, and may be you are right, they seems more soft..... i was thinking it was due i not pass beyond the early years of war.

[CB..]

Originally Posted by gouldjg

@CB

Hi mate

Glad to hear your having a ball and getting your results.

Can I just ask,

Did you do a standard extension of max ranges for every passive sensor and then the main passive at the top named hydrophone?.

If so can you describe in more detail as to each change with regards to the max. I am aware you changed the min to get blind spots?.

Have you made big changes to waves or noise or have you left this standard?.

I want to start comparing soon, to see which is the main direction to go. I am blinkered into thinking max range changes are my key but also min range blind spots.

The main of this is being done in the ai_sensor_dat file.

Thanks

Jason

here's the thing i've left the maximum ranges for all the hydrophones (and all the other sensors too) as stock --no increase in maximum range--
tho i DID sneak the generic AI_Hydrophone sensor max to 8000 as a side experiment- this is why i THINK? the sub meter goes orange before it goes red --see previous post for the theory)
what i did was to increase the minimum range to 1000 metres

and use col's trick on the sim.cfg--

i get detected at exactly the defined maximum distance in the AI_sensors.dat -- spot on usually--

i'm not sure this is going to be usefull to you as it is now (due to the sim.cfg entrys being entirely non stock) but the feel of the concept is to avoid thinking about the facts and figures and to exploit the natural DD behaviuor in a way that makes them as interesting an opponent as possible in game--

making them co-operate in ways that normally they wouldn't have to do--

a slow moving DD at 1000 metres wouldn't normally have to "ask" a DD at 4000 plus metres to check on your location so it can make it's attack run--

the trick being that un-less you know that this is what's going on - it appears in gameplay terms to be realistic behaviuor--
this was the entire thrust of my work on the SH2 DD's
make the gameplay "feel" realistic and it doesn't matter exactly what's going on in terms of sensor information-- it allso makes things un-predictable and presents the player with a bit of a puzzle--makes you feel like your going up against something more human than the normal sim type AI--that's my main ai any way-- this is a fair start!
but it will not satisfy the die hards--

[gouldjg]

EDIT: I should note that all of my tsting has b een at periscope depth. If it makes a difference if i went to 50 or 100 meters i dunno. Ive been using the periscope to mark my distances but in hindsight i might start using active sonar since i dont think it alerts the DD. Started using it under storm conditions cause the scope was usless and the DD didnt seem to mind

Yep I noticed this,

When I went to say 20mtre the ranges got longer.

My standard setting is pd, 20mtre and 50mtre.

I would only use these in campaign unless attacked.

I think the hydrophones ceiling is at 10 mtre and pd is only 12.

[gouldjg]

Originally Posted by CB..

here's the thing i've left the maximum ranges for all the hydrophones (and all the other sensors too) as stock --no increase in maximum range--
tho i DID sneak the generic AI_Hydrophone sensor max to 8000 as a side experiment- this is why i THINK? the sub meter goes orange before it goes red --see previous post for the theory)
what i did was to increase the minimum range to 1000 metres

and use col's trick on the sim.cfg--

i get detected at exactly the defined maximum distance in the AI_sensors.dat -- spot on usually--

i'm not sure this is going to be usefull to you as it is now (due to the sim.cfg entrys being entirely non stock) but the feel of the concept is to avoid thinking about the facts and figures and to exploit the natural DD behaviuor in a way that makes them as interesting an opponent as possible in game--

making them co-operate in ways that normally they wouldn't have to do--

a slow moving DD at 1000 metres wouldn't normally have to "ask" a DD at 4000 plus metres to check on your location so it can make it's attack run--

the trick being that un-less you know that this is what's going on - it appears in gameplay terms to be realistic behaviuor--
this was the entire thrust of my work on the SH2 DD's
make the gameplay "feel" realistic and it doesn't matter exactly what's going on in terms of sensor information-- it allso makes things un-predictable and presents the player with a bit of a puzzle--makes you feel like your going up against something more human than the normal sim type AI--that's my main ai any way-- this is a fair start!
but it will not satisfy the die hards--

Ahhhhhh

So you are the guy who had me sitting for days on SH2 wondering how the hell I was detected. :rotfl: :rotfl:

What mod was it?

I tried a few but then just went to wolfpack leauge (forgot the proper name) for a short while to experience the mp which was great with those stat missions.

[Ducimus]

Originally Posted by gouldjg

Yep I noticed this,

When I went to say 20mtre the ranges got longer.

My standard setting is pd, 20mtre and 50mtre.

I would only use these in campaign unless attacked.

I think the hydrophones ceiling is at 10 mtre and pd is only 12.

Belch ill try it again at 50 meters . Maybe im more in the figure i want then i think i am. I totally forgot that pasive sonar had a cone to it.

[Der Teddy Bar]

This link has the SHIII u-boat sensor formulas. I would presume that they are also the same formulas used for the Escort AI...

Regarding your testing...
I can only presume that no one is using a default version of SHIII (1.4b) and it is most likely that there will be varying versions of RUB, the 16Km visibility etc, as well as a mixture of what ever else thrown in. This makes for a poor testing environment, even more so with group testing, as what works for one may not work for others.

A default version (1.4b) is needed to ensure that there is no other factor distorting the results. No one here can say with any certainty that changes made to produce the 16km visibility mod is not having an adverse effect regarding the detection of your u-boat by the AI. We can presume that it doesn't, but that is a very big assumption.

By everyone having the default version you can then take other peoples experiences more at face value. With everyone using their own bastardised version then there is a high chance that someone might actually hit the nail on the head and their find gets put aside as it did not work for most others as they got a distorted result as a consequence of the bastardised version they were using.

Also time compression will play a part in how the results play out. The Avon Lady showed this to great effect when he posted his thread regarding at what distances your crew would ‘see’ an enemy ship at various time compressions. It is my interpretation of The Avon Lady’s find, that at higher compression values that certain processes may need to be prioritised resulting in some of them being dropped. As such, a maximum time compression should be agreed upon. I would say no greater than 4x in these tests.

I think that you are starting to use the same test missions, another very important test factor.

I will not be visiting this thread again as I am too busy checking the number of rivets on the torpedos.