Destroyers Discussion (getting rid of pin point drops)

[CB..]

Originally Posted by Col7777

Hi CB,

If I'm looking at the right thing, then yes it is 15knots but 20 in the sonar section, hope this helps.

Cheers Col!

pretty perculiar stuff--means in theory that a lone DD without radar travelling at over 15 knots is completely blind to surface contacts --dunno what to make of that at all--

[caspofungin]

you're looking at "enemy speed factor" -- eg the faster your sub is moving, the easier it is to spot by the enemy. eg when attacking a convoy on the surface, your better off moving in slowly as you'll ge closer rather than the high-speed torpedo boat approach.

that's different from speed factor -- which is the limit above which sensors won't work.

enemy surface factor i gather is related to your aspect -- you'll be picked up easier on any sensor if you're at 90 degrees to the escort, but will have to be much closer to be picked up head on.

[caspofungin]

wrt to dc's -- maybe there's someway to give them the same "noise-making" attribute as the decoys -- except of much greater amplitude, and of shorter duration.

or course, w/out the sdk...

i have different effects when attacking convoys -- there's always some response from the escorts, even if they're pinging away on the far side on the convoy. i think the noise factor has to be reduced -- allowing you to be picked up on hydrophones further away -- i posted a chart early in this thread that implied you could be heard running at 6 kts about 3000m away. in game, i can't get that figure above about 2k.

also, detection time plays an important role. w/ a detection time of 0, you'll be picked up much further away w/ any sensor more consistently than w/ a longer detection time -- reduces variability. useful in tests, but in game, there should be some element of chance to simulate eg keeping a poor watch, sleepy lookouts, listening in the wrong direction, etc.

the problem is, we don't know the algorith used to specify detection, or the lack of it. if we did, it would be pretty easy to calculate things out and rapidly reach the effects we wanted.

"wadda we want? SDK! when do we want it? Now!"

[Redwine]

Originally Posted by HEMISENT

I received a PM from Gouldjg a couple days ago.
He is out for a few days on a work related issue. Should be returning soon.

Thanks alot Hemisent , he can help us a lot attempting to balace diference between early and later DDs.

Originally Posted by CB..

here's an additional point--

i just ran another campaign patrol
found a convoy in medium weather- slightly choppy seas--
and found that i was "undetectable" even at close range by the DD's
i sank some ships reloaded at ahead standard along side the convoy at around 3,000 metres from an escort (they were so sensitive in the previous patrol that this would have been deadly)
then sank some more--lol

Same happens here, some times they are so deadly and some times in the same mission and same files settings they are stupid..... i am conviced there is some random factor actuating at some place.

Originally Posted by CB..

but here's the argument illustrated regarding the DD's dumbness

i added airsupport to some of the DD's a while ago--
and every time i torped a merchant a group of aircraft would instantly appear and bombard the place with DC's--where-as the DD's just acted like nothing was happenning and remain stubbornly in their normal escort locations--

i mean even tho i was submerged (at 25 metres each time) and the aircraft had no contact to attack they still "had a go" and attacked more or less randomly in the general area--so why didn't the DD's do the same thing---surely they should adopt a search pattern if nothing else---if the DD's had adopted some sort of search pattern it's pretty certain that sooner or later one would have randomly wandered close enough to pick me up (if i stayed close to the convoy to attack again)

This behavior you described not happens to me, when i run the U-505 mission, there are 5 ubber DDs, they do not detect me is i dont do any stupid thing, but when i torpedoe the carrier, they weak up and start a frenetic search for me and always catch me.

Carrier destroy works as a "trigger' for search patterns. :hmm:

This happens in another missions too, in happy times, they do nothing but when i torpedoe a ship they start up looking foe me, plus a pack of them appears as called by radio to asist them against me.

Originally Posted by CB..

i noticed the generic AI sensor stuff too Red'-- wonder if theyre's any relevance to it?

I can uderstand why we have these generic settings if we have a speciefied ones :hmm:

[caspofungin]

i'm not sure the ai_sonar and ai_hydrophones settings do anything.

reason? check the .sens file for each escort -- 1 node is visual, determinged by ai_visual by linkname. there's no nodes linked to ai_sonar, ai_hydrophone, etc -- rather, they're all linked to individual sensor types.

also, chek out the late war escorts -- they've all switched to type 147 exclusively, when irl type147 was used in conjunction w/ other types. so if we restrict type147 to historical parameters, we're reducing their ability to search w/ a "searchlight" sonar.

it may be worth adding a sonar type to an unused node, if possible -- the c and d nodes are for radio-direction finding and radar warning, which none of the allied escorts have. (but how sweet would that be -- you send a contact report in proximity to a convoy, and an escort comes over to investigate...)

[CB..]

Originally Posted by caspofungin

you're looking at "enemy speed factor" -- eg the faster your sub is moving, the easier it is to spot by the enemy. eg when attacking a convoy on the surface, your better off moving in slowly as you'll ge closer rather than the high-speed torpedo boat approach.

that's different from speed factor -- which is the limit above which sensors won't work.

enemy surface factor i gather is related to your aspect -- you'll be picked up easier on any sensor if you're at 90 degrees to the escort, but will have to be much closer to be picked up head on.

yup just realised that myself --I must be losing the plot--

This behavior you described not happens to me, when i run the U-505 mission, there are 5 ubber DDs, they do not detect me is i dont do any stupid thing, but when i torpedoe the carrier, they weak up and start a frenetic search for me and always catch me.

that's what seems to be missing from the AI behavuoir in my game Red if the DD's would do that i'd be basically happy with things --even as stock--
but they never do--it's allmost as if some of the AI routines are missing--
was like that from day one-- stock game right thru the patch and every mod i've tried to construct to sort it out--no effect--they only investigate an area after they have detected the sub--no matter how many ships i sink
waste of time really

[Marhkimov]

Originally Posted by CB..

That's what seems to be missing from the AI behavuoir in my game Red if the DD's would do that i'd be basically happy with things --even as stock--
but they never do--it's allmost as if some of the AI routines are missing--
was like that from day one-- stock game right thru the patch and every mod i've tried to construct to sort it out--no effect--they only investigate an area after they have detected the sub--no matter how many ships i sink
waste of time really

I don't understand why it is not working for you, CB.

It works for me in the same way that Redwine described. In the u-505 mission, if I don't do anything stupid, the 5 DDs will not detect me. But if I sink the escort carrier, they all go crazy and enter into search patterns. They ALWAYS find me in the end. And they DO seem to co-operate with each other, either by radio or taking turns on DC attacks. One will start off by pinging me. Then the other four will start their approach, pinging me as well.

[Redwine]

Originally Posted by CB..

that's what seems to be missing from the AI behavuoir in my game Red if the DD's would do that i'd be basically happy with things --even as stock--
but they never do--it's allmost as if some of the AI routines are missing--
was like that from day one-- stock game right thru the patch and every mod i've tried to construct to sort it out--no effect--they only investigate an area after they have detected the sub--no matter how many ships i sink
waste of time really

I offers you my files before, just let my know wich files you want.

Now i have more than a dozen of Ai-Sensors/Sim.cfg :rotfl:

[CB..]

thanks for the thoughts guys!

Red !!! you should see how many bak up versions of different ai-sensor/sim.cfg sets i have got lol!!! lost count--every time i think i've got something going it vanishes on the next patrol--back to nothing again--

this is why i keep giving up on the game--it doesn't make sense that i can't solve it - but i can't--and the game is use-less as it is-- completely useless--

i've tried compensating for it by making the u-boat as fragile as a china cup--AND increasing the damage range and force of the DC's , adding airsupport to the DD's--doubling the number of DD's escorting all the convoys--and yup i've even tried adding hydrophones to the merchants LOL!!!-- as i say i've given the hydrophones unlimited range (well 40,000 metres anyway) nothing works-- i get the very occasional moment where it seems i've got it right - but it never lasts--

the DD's do co-operate if they by accident happen to detect me--but i can sink the entire convoy if i have the patience to do that and not one of the DD's will bother to investigate-- even if the convoy is taking evasive action!!

i don't think this is a sensor problem

or if it is it's a very perculiar one--

if i thought that re-installing would help i'd do that - but as i say it's been like this from day one --and re-installing doesn't make any difference--(i've allready tried it numerous times)

the AI just doesn't work (for me)

EDIT/ UP_DATE;

well here you go--as a final act of desperation if nothing else lol
i set the maximum range for the AI sensors including sonar and visual to 40,000 metres (their hydrophones are allready at 40,000)

so here i am approaching a convoy in broad daylight flat calm weather conditions June 1943--

i get spotted (not surpirising with the range of the ai visual sensor)

a corvette chuggs over to take a look-- doesn't detect me (submerged at silent) so i continue in towards the merchants---i torp a tanker and leave the DD's do make a half hearted attempt to detect me (mainly because they spotted my scope) but they came no where near--
so i went deep and silent and left again---no danger what so-ever--

perhaps next time i'll get killed before i can say open torpedo tube doors but all you can conclude from that is

everything regarding DD detection rates dumbass DD behaviour and or uber DD behaviour is entirely completely and utterly RANDOM

i'd put it at about 80% dumb 20% uber at best with nothing much imbetween--

there is no game---SH3 is a very attractive hugely interactive screen saver..nothing more

and no one could be more annoyed about that than me

[caspofungin]

maybe we should concentrate on an open source game eg danger from the deep. make up our own ai routines, etc.

[Marhkimov]

Originally Posted by caspofungin

maybe we should concentrate on an open source game eg danger from the deep. make up our own ai routines, etc.

hahahaha, that's the easy way out.

[CB..]

un less we can find and override the randomisation and FORCE the AI to obey the rules laid down in the AI_sensors.dat and sim.cfg if we can do that then it'll be great --what do you reckon-?

[Marhkimov]

Originally Posted by CB..

un less we can find and override the randomisation and FORCE the AI to obey the rules laid down in the AI_sensors.dat and sim.cfg if we can do that then it'll be great --what do you reckon-?

Those files are less like AI rules and more like AI sensor abilities. Maybe we are fixing the wrong thing. No no, scratch that... We are DEFINATELY fixing the wrong thing.

Everybody knows that we need to change the AI sub-routines. Then the real problem comes up... HOW?

[CB..]

Originally Posted by marhkimov

Those files are less like AI rules and more like AI sensor abilities. Maybe we are fixing the wrong thing. No no, scratch that... We are DEFINATELY fixing the wrong thing.

Everybody knows that we need to change the AI sub-routines. Then the real problem comes up... HOW?

well you know what i'm getting at--- but your right we're fixing the wrong thing--something else is taking priority over those sensor settings and adding a randomised factor that is not listed in the sim.cfg---

either it's a direct AI routine or it's an additional sensor factor--summat along those lines--

or perhaps something is overiding the crewquality setting in the campaign.rnd
and randomising it- having DD crews with zero crew experience would give the same problem --it wouldn't matter what sensors you gave them they'd still be useless and vice versa-- some where to start perhaps--?

or perhaps it's an problem with the cfg date for the DD's -- now that really has never made sense--and caused problems before--DD's not spawning etc--

one minor point about the sensors---the american DD's have these additional sensors the brits don't have them what are they?

[Sensor 9]
NodeName=R01
LinkName=TypeSC
StartDate=19380101
EndDate=19420601

[Sensor 10]
NodeName=R01
LinkName=TypeSG
StartDate=19420601
EndDate=19440101

[Sensor 11]
NodeName=R01
LinkName=TypeSS
StartDate=19440101
EndDate=19451231


as the american DD's have a higher tendenciy to go uber than the brits it's at least a clue--

[Redwine]

Originally Posted by CB..

everything regarding DD detection rates dumbass DD behaviour and or uber DD behaviour is entirely completely and utterly RANDOM

Originally Posted by CB..

something else is taking priority over those sensor settings and adding a randomised factor that is not listed in the sim.cfg---

As i wrote before, i am convinced of that......

Same mission, same files settings, some times it is stupid to evade them, some times it is near to imposible, alternatively.

I had adjusted

Min Bearing =15

It is 30* deaf zone at bow.

Active beam as only 4* wide.

Min Range 500 in both pasive and active.

They launch me Laser Guided Depth Charges and Helgedogs

There is a sailor with his head in the water

I can believe the dev team made some thing like this and can understand why for !


Then..... what can we do ?

It is posible to reduce the later time equpipement, reducing its capability or putting on ubber DDs early equipment.....?