Destroyers Discussion (getting rid of pin point drops)

[Redwine]

Originally Posted by caspofungin

@hemisent

(and others having issues w/ single destroyers)

consider implementing the min surface for sonars in ai_sensors -- a value of 60-80 seems to work best. allows you to evade active pinging by turning directly into or away from the escort, as was practiced irl. in combination w/ silent running, allows you to potentially get some distance and eventually break free.

Just an idea.... if you adjust a min value in anywhere, any measure under this value make the sub undetected.

I put the line "aspect = x,x" used into Sensors.cfg for own sub sensors, into the "Sim.cfg".

Not sure if it works, need more test specially on this point, but if you put a value

Aspect = 0,5

it means the aspect reduce at half the detection capability, but not totally to zero as if you use a minimun value setting.

I note i can scape from uber DDs leting them at back, it seems to be more easy than when they are at my side.

May be you want to try it.....

Originally Posted by thecaptain

Had high hopes for this one. I set sail and purposely steered for the area around Gibralter. I was looking for trouble and could be assured I'd find it there. Sure enough, it didn't take long for one destroyer to emerge out of the darkness and see me. I took to the depths and waited to see what would happen next. It wasn't long before he called in several of his friends. One after another, more destroyers answered the call. Unfortunately, that was as exciting as it ever got. I set the engines for flank just to draw their attention and not once did any of them go to active sonar - not a single ping. A couple just continued to make sweeps and depth charge runs behind me, but never came close. Don't get me wrong. I appreciate the hard work that went into this test mod, but it's going to need much more. I replaced the old files and I found that the destroyers were much more aggressive. Go flank and they've got ya.

The Captain

Hi Captain....... may be this can help you.

I think so..... only my impression...... the fact of you dont hear the pings, do not means the DDs are not pinging you.

I am not crazy, i think so, the gtame modelation of the ping sound is not linked to the Dds pinging activity.

You can verify it.

Just make a test file. Adjust visual and radar min height to a high value, to ensure you are not being detected by radar or visually.

Then reduce the active beam wide angle (min bearing) to in example 15 degrees, it is 15 degrees left, and 15 degees right.

Your beam now is 30 degrees wide.

Just go to periscope depth, to ensure you can follow the map icons.

Then put flank speed and let them to detect you, you will see they are going to your position, and turning right and left scanning for you.......

No ping sound.

Click on the map icon, then you are able to see, the dash line indicating the active sonar beam.

When you enter into about a 90 or 80 % of the active sonar beam, you will see the DDs just put bow on you, you are now centered in middle of the active sonar beam.

This means you was detected by active sonar, you are pinged.......

But no ping sound yet.......

The DDs is pinging you, you can see it at the icon on the map, the DDs stops to turn right, to left, to right to left to sacanning for you...... he put you just in middle of the active beam now, and is running just over your position......

But no ping sound......

When the DDs is more near, you start to hear the ping sound, but he is pinging you some time before.

What it means..... the range at wich you are hearing the ping, is not related with the pinging range capability.

It is a bug in my opinion, and is correctable with TT's MiniTweaker, wich can edit the range at wich a sound is audible.

I hope this can clarify and be a help for you on new ideas.

Originally Posted by Jungman

Hey, I found out how to set the Hydrophones Sensitivity from deaf to infinite. It is really easy. It was discovered based upon changing one line at a time inspired by all you guys, CB and all's work. (plus 12 hours of testing).

Sim.cfg

[Hydrophone]
;Detection time=1 ;[s] Stock one second is pretty fast.
;Sensitivity=0.03 ;(0..1) Who knows. Nothing gained here.
;Height factor=0 ;[m] Depth? harder to detect? Needs testing.
;Waves factor=0.5 ;[>=0] Rough weather makes for harder detection.
;Speed factor=15 ;[kt] Destroyer speed, higher the worst detection. Above this no detection.
Noise factor=0.1 ;[>=0] 1.0 Sensitivity for speed sub noise. Lower is higher.


Setting the Noise Factor from default 1.0 to a lower number towards zero will make the Sensitivity to your Uboats speed noise and silent running go to infinite as you aproach zero. Also going higher than 1 makes it become deaf. no other change. I made comments on what the other values seem to do.

So Noise Factor set at 0.1 you must move at below 3 knots at silent running at 4 km. Within 500m you must be SR and zero speed.

I disabled the DD active sonar for these test! Only passive at work here.

Set it at 0.5 you can move at 4 knots without silent running out to 2 km of DD.

Set for 1.0 for normal.

I commented out the other factors for now.

Yeh! There you go.

Hi Jungman...... my english is not good, but i note you discover the Sensivity value doesnt works fine..... lookt at the yellow line above you wrote.

That as a headache for us at first times of this topic, the matter is this value doesnt works, if the sensivity value at AI_Sensors.dat is not set at zero.

The game take the Sim.cfg sensivity value, only if the AI-Sensors.dat sensivity value is adjusted to zero.

This is explained into SH3Sim.act file, and discovered by .... i dont remember who was......

I think so the best way is to adjust sensivity into AI-Sensors.dat, then you can adjust a speciphied value for each determined sensor......

If you want to adjust sensivity via Sim.cfg, you must to adjust all sensivity values into AI-Sensors.dat to zero....... then you are able to use the Sim.cfg value, but.......... now you will a single sensivity value, it means, you will have the same sensivity for all sensors, disregarding model or age......

Sorry if i misunderstand that you wrote....

About your silent running settings, with my settings i attempt to found a behavior i think so was beliable.
I reach to be undetected by pasive sonars when at slow speed and silent running, except if you had the bad luck to be pinged.

I think so in real life a sub at silent running was litterally undetectable except it had been detected in the zone by periscope use visually or by radar, or use of high propeller speeds, and in the DDs seach he had the very bad luck to be pinged.

With my settings i am detected at slow speed, under 3 knots, at very near ranges, 500/1000, but when put silent running, the DDs can pass over me with no detection.

This is due to in the game, if you are not detected previously, by radar, visual or pasive sonar, they do not sails pinging.

If they had a previous advertence, and when they pass over me are pinging, i am detected.

[Jungman]

CB, I commented out each line. The only thing I noticed was the changes to Noise Factor.

Just commenting out Sensitivity did nothing/something. In my test I disabled active sonar.

If I set Noise Factor to zero. You get infinite detection. Give it a try. But as Capsfuna said, he did the same thing.

maybe it is not the effect you are looking for. I tested this for almost 24 hours straight. If you set Noise Factor towards zero, your sub is picked up more easy.

But I will look at commenting out Sensitivity only, it seemed not to make alot of difference. I will look at that over again.

I seen that Noise Factor is commented out in your tweak, that will cause the Noise Factor to be zero and that is what makes it go infinite (or it does the same thing?).

Please give it a try. Just stock Sim.cfg set the Noise Factor to zero. Try it at 10, 1.0, 0.01, 0. It makes a huge difference.

That as a headache for us at first times of this topic, the matter is this value doesnt works, if the sensivity value at AI_Sensors.dat is not set at zero.

The game take the Sim.cfg sensivity value, only if the AI-Sensors.dat sensivity value is adjusted to zero.

This is explained into SH3Sim.act file, and discovered by .... i dont remember who was......

I think so the best way is to adjust sensivity into AI-Sensors.dat, then you can adjust a speciphied value for each determined sensor......

If you want to adjust sensivity via Sim.cfg, you must to adjust all sensivity values into AI-Sensors.dat to zero....... then you are able to use the Sim.cfg value, but.......... now you will a single sensivity value, it means, you will have the same sensivity for all sensors, disregarding model or age......

Oh, I see. I just now seen this post. You are setting the values in AI_Sensors.dat to zero too. I guess I will look at it.

I assume you guys know about the Noise Factor effect then.

With my settings i am detected at slow speed, under 3 knots, at very near ranges, 500/1000, but when put silent running, the DDs can pass over me with no detection.

What values are you using exactly?

I get the same effect by setting noise Factor = 0.1 as above.

I would like to try out what you are using.

[CB..]

Originally Posted by Jungman

CB, I commented out each line. The only thing I noticed was the changes to Noise Factor.

Just commenting out Sensitivity did nothing/something. In my test I disabled active sonar.

If I set Noise Factor to zero. You get infinite detection. Give it a try. But as Capsfuna said, he did the same thing.

maybe it is not the effect you are looking for. I tested this for almost 24 hours straight. If you set Noise Factor towards zero, your sub is picked up more easy.

But I will look at commenting out Sensitivity only, it seemed not to make alot of difference. I will look at that over again.

I seen that Noise Factor is commented out in your tweak, that will cause the Noise Factor to be zero and that is what makes it go infinite (or it does the same thing?).

Please give it a try. Just stock Sim.cfg set the Noise Factor to zero. Try it at 10, 1.0, 0.01, 0. It makes a huge difference.

no no you misunderstand me mate--that is entirely the effect i was looking for---

i was just trying to save you some confusion as to WHY the effect was working that's all--
it's not the noise factor being low it's the other factors being commented out that is creating the effect--

the effect is great---and is exactly how i got the mod started--

[Jungman]

I understand you quite well. That is not what I am finding. Not to make you upset.

I can change the sensitivity via the Noise Factor only. I understand I have commeted out the Sensitivity line.

The reason the file you use is working is because you have commented out the Noise Factor line and that will cause it to go infinite.

It is the other way around, or it does the same thing either way.??

But I can control how Sensitive the hydrophones pick up the sub. From deaf to hearing the sub very well from 4000m away. Using the Noise Factor only.

But I will run another check to make absolutely sure. This is wierd.

I will not comment out Sensitivity line and see if it still works. Then I will know what the hex is going on.

Maybe commenting out Sensitivity line allows the Noise Factor to work. But I do not see if you use the noise factor. Those are lines from the player's Sensors.cfg and should not work inside the AI's enemy Sim.cfg file....

[CB..]

Originally Posted by Jungman

I understand you quite well. That is not what I am finding. Not to make you upset.

I can change the sensitivity via the Noise Factor only. I understand I have commeted out the Sensitivity line.

The reason the file you use is working is because you have commented out the Noise Factor line and that will cause it to go infinite.

It is the other way around, or it does the same thing either way.

But I can control how Sensitive the hydrophjones pick up the sub. From deaf to hearing the sub very well from 4000m away.

well no you don't understand at all i'm afraid--

I was actually trying to help lol!!!

noise factor is at 1 in the mod

not commented out---you have to allow for some noise in order for the subs screws to be masked when at low revs--with an ubered sensor you need to balance out that ubered effect with other limitations---

who cares why the dang effect works as long as it does right---again was hoping to save you some time based on the immense amount of time i've wasted in this thread chasing moonbeams---if you guys want to spend another 26 pages re-discovering all the same things discovered in the last 26 pages then i'm gonna lose the will to live lol

[caspofungin]

@redwine
you're absolutely right -- just beacuse you can't hear the pings, doesn't mean the escorts aren't using active sensors. you only hear the pings when you've been detected.

also, re aspect line -- tried it, didn't work for me.

@jungman
try setting sensitivity to 0 in ai_sensors, then play w/ the setting in sim.cfg. or just change each individual value in ai_sensors. it has some effect (for me) just not easily quantifiable or predictable.

[Jungman]

I left the Sensitivity line in as stock. It does nothing.

If I set the Noise Factor from (1.0) to (0.1), then I get a huge increase in the DD detecting me. I am using (0.5) and it works well as Redwine said. (he uses 0.8).

The sub screws are masked at low revs and using silent running. It seems to do the same thing.

I am not kidding you. Can you a least try it before dismising me?

Just set the Noise Factor to ZERO and see what happens (it is infinite red). It makes no difference if Sensitivity is commented out.

It does the same thing, but with the Noise Factor, I can set the level of detection. With just commenting out Sensitivity, you have no control over the volume (unless you can decifer the hydrophone values in AI_Sensors.dat)

What I am doing works great/ Why does not anyone at least try it?

It is not a Ego thing, I swear it works for me.

try setting sensitivity to 0 in ai_sensors,

exactly where at? for the AI_Hydrophone or each individual pasive sonar? There is no one value, as i was speaking to TT about. It is in a strange format I am still deciphering.

[caspofungin]

wait, wait, wait -- we're getting our wires crossed here.

the finding re noise factor is absolutely true -- no one's denying you. ducimus found the same stuff out back on pg19, but it's good to have independent confirmation.

stock sensitivity is not 0 -- at least, it wasn't for me. i changed all active and hydrophone sensitivity values in ai_sensors to 0 using tt's tweak tool w/ modified ai_sensors tweak file. that is necessary to let the game read you sensitivity values in sim.cfg -- documented in the sim.act file.

each individual entry needs to be changed (type 123P, 128P, QCLP, QGAP, etc.). ai_hydrophones is a generic entry that isn't used v often in campaign or single missions, same as ai_radar, ai_sonar. only ai_visual is used regularly.

then changing sensitivty has some effect.

i agree, it's likely not very important, since noise factor allows you to determine how easily you're picked up on hydrophones. but it does have some effect in my tests. if you've set sensitivity to 0 in ai_sensors or done tests w/ the ai_sensor sensitivity (for each individual sensor) set to a range of values, and have noticed no difference.. well, then, i guess i'm wrong.

[CB..]

Originally Posted by Jungman

I left the Sensitivity line in as stock. It does nothing.

If I set the Noise Factor from 1.0 to 0.1, then I get a huge increase in the DD detecting me.

I am not kidding you. Can you a least try it before dismising me?

You are wrong to tell me it is not working as I said. Have you tried it?

Just set the Noise Factor to ZERO and see what happens. It makes no difference if Sensitivity is commented out.

It does the same thing, but with the Noise Factor, I can set the level of detection. With just commenting out Sensitivity, you have no control over the volume (unless you can decifer the hydrophone values in AI_Sensors.dat)

What I am doing works great/ Why does not anyone at least try it?

It is not a Ego thing, I swear it works for me.

i'm not dismissing you --i have tried it---back in the earlier pages of the thread there is a discussion about precisely this effect-- yes-- as i said the noise factor and the wave factor ARE the most powerfull way to control the effectiveness of the sensors within certain limits--it works---but it has drawbacks that can be difficult to over come regarding sheer gameplay --(depending on what sort of problems your having as stock with your DD's of course to start with)

for me the results were not powerfull enough to overcome the stock convoy escorts lack of alertness and aggression during normal campaign gameplay---but if you are running a sim.cfg set up with only the noisefactor actually in use the rest commented out---then the issue is that by commenting out other the entrys this has a far more pronounced effect than those you leave in---

it's not an issue of wether there is an effect or no--it's an issue of WHY there is an effect---if you see what i mean? i hope? :hmm:

[caspofungin]

oh, and fyi, if you use sh3 commmander, make sure you change the sim.cfg in the backup file otherwise you'll be playing w/ stock values.

[Jungman]

OK that makes more sense. I have the US version. I want to reproduce what you did. It is science and an experiment should be reproduceable. I see what tools and method you used.

Dominicus and you do see the Noise Factor can have a huge effect. The Sensitivity (using my own hex editing) was mixed results; as you found.

The game mechanics of this SH3 is frustrating. Some of the most basic changes cannot be altered. I wonder if anyone ever solved the Night Vision problem of the crew.

Not using SH3 Commander yet.

@CB.

for me the results were not powerfull enough to overcome the stock convoy escorts lack of alertness and aggression during normal campaign gameplay---but if you are running a sim.cfg set up with only the noisefactor actually in use the rest commented out---then the issue is that by commenting out other the entrys this has a far more pronounced effect than those you leave in---

it's not an issue of wether there is an effect or no--it's an issue of WHY there is an effect---if you see what i mean? i hope?

Yes, I understand now what you are doing. It is the Convoy Escorts Dumbness.

I only commented out the other factors for testing, it still works if left in but i think I know more what you are looking for...

If I leave all stock, and only change Noise Factor, it will work. But the DD convoy AI behaviour is still not good using this method.

The method you are using will make the DD come running after you for sure. In that sense, it is what you want to achieve.

If I only use Noise Factor, the DD convoy escorts are still dumb until I wake them up severely.

If I use your method of Sensitivity, then the convoy DD AI will wake up and they allcome after me.

I think that is what you want. And in that sense, I understand. Then you are correct. Your method will wake the escort DD to chase you. Noise Factor alone I was using will not do that.

edit: forgot the smiley After reading from page 19, you guys have really already went over all of this with a fine tooth comb.

[Redwine]

Originally Posted by caspofungin

@redwine
you're absolutely right -- just beacuse you can't hear the pings, doesn't mean the escorts aren't using active sensors. you only hear the pings when you've been detected.

also, re aspect line -- tried it, didn't work for me.

Yes, we need to be ware about that, the point at wich we can hear the "pings" is not the poit where they start up to ping us.....

They are pinging us very early than the moment at wich we hear the pings.....

About the aspect...... it is present into the Sensors files for own sub, i am not sure if works for AI sensors, but it must..... any way, i neeed to make more test, speciphics on this point, i only put the line, and... in my impression, i can scape from 5 uber DDs if i am creful maintaining them at my back...... may be works, may be not...... :hmm:

Originally Posted by Jungman

Oh, I see. I just now seen this post. You are setting the values in AI_Sensors.dat to zero too. I guess I will look at it.

I assume you guys know about the Noise Factor effect then.

Not that way..... i choice the other way, to adjust a speciphied sensivity value into each individual sensor into AI-Sensors.dat file, using the Time Traveller Mini Tweaker program.....

For that i readed above, i undestand you are using a manual hexeditor to edit the file ?

May be you dont know about the TimeTraveller program ?
It give you an easy way to edit the file...... you can edit each individual value so easy...... only need to dont forget to remove the back up or renamed file from the working folder after edit.......sorry if i understand bad.

Originally Posted by Jungman

What values are you using exactly?

I get the same effect by setting noise Factor = 0.1 as above.

I would like to try out what you are using.

You can download my files and check all my settings one or two page before this......page 26, look for "Detection Stage 12" file download........

Let me a minutes to check if i made new changes and i will put the news......

Anyway, it give me pasive coverage, but if an active sensor pick-up me i am well detected, it looks to be near to real life, in my opinion, may i be wrong ?

About the noise factor, you are right, and as CB wrote for you, noise factor make and wave factor make sense on the game....

Specially wave factor seems to have a lot of effect on the detection capability.

The matter is, i think so is good to have a determined noise factor, specially when you are attacked by many DDs, then their own noise plays against them, reducing their capabilities.

Same with waves, i like they have troubles detecting me into a storm.

Off course, managing even a single file we can make big changes in their detection capabilities, in example i was able to manage their capabilities, only changing the pasive and active sonar beams angles, with an excelent results.

Talking about results, we need to remember how we start the discusion here, not every body was having the same problem, CB has Dummy DDs, i was having uber DDs.

Finally after lot of research, we found how to manage the DDs, and then, there are many diferent behaviors to obtain, in example the CB one, wich makes the DDs attack you but after a logical time they return to escort the convoy, but you can search for another behavior, where the DDs maintain they prey on you for 30 hours......

Here enter the personal pleasure........

The important is, every day we know more about how to manage the DDs attacks.

May be a final mod, with many diferent behaviors can be done.

[CB..]

Originally Posted by Jungman

@CB.

Yes, I understand now what you are doing. It is the Convoy Escorts Dumbness.

I only commented out the other factors for testing, it still works if left in but i think I know more what you are looking for...

If I leave all stock, and only change Noise Factor, it will work. But the DD convoy AI behaviour is still not good using this method.

The method you are using will make the DD come running after you for sure. In that sense, it is what you want to achieve.

If I only use Noise Factor, the DD convoy escorts are still dumb until I wake them up severely.

If I use your method of Sensitivity, then the convoy DD AI will wake up and they allcome after me.

I think that is what you want. And in that sense, I understand. Then you are correct. Your method will wake the escort DD to chase you. Noise Factor alone I was using will not do that.

edit: forgot the smiley After reading from page 19, you guys have really already went over all of this with a fine tooth comb.

yup that's it---here's a good example of what i am talking about (this as a result of using the mod i made for this issue)

having tried four times to approach a convoy and four times being beaten back without result by the DD's--i finally got myself into the ideal attack position and was able to get into a good firing position- sinking a tanker
--all completely undetected-- once the tanker went up the DD's found me and sank me lol---so there's fully dynamic DD behaviuor-- on the first four attacks the DD's detected me before i got into an attack position--and kept me deep and slow DC-ing me all the time- untill the convoy was safely past--then the DD's went back to the convoy--on the final attack i was able to get past them and sink the tanker- only to get sunk -- i don't know why they were able to sink me on the last occasion and not on the first four occasions during the same attack on the same convoy during the same career patrol--nor do i want to know why!!! chances are i was getting cocky after surviving the previous four assaults--and got punished accordingly

the fact is that the DD's did their job--so i am more than satisfied and am no longer looking for anwers to my original problem of dumb convoy escorts--they ain't dumb no more--
i'm no longer testing this mod--i am playing SH3--hopefully you can get something you want going in a similar fashion--keep at it ---me i'm finished and am taking part in the thread out of interest more than anything--may be i can help

[timetraveller]

Jungman,

Best I can tell, all those Range, Elevation, Sensitivity values are already in the Mini Tweaker ready for tweaking.

TT

Your 123A example-

[Jungman]

Sure is. I did not know about your tool until today!

Thanks TT and CB , and Redwine and everyone for your help.

I can finially play a decent game challenge against the convoy escorts using all the new settings. Tweaked slightly for me.

Now time to start a fresh new install and career for the weekend voyage. :P