RUb 1.43 with Ops mod and Improved Convoys Now Available. - Page 3

Beery · 08-08-05, 09:59 PM

Regarding AA effectiveness, the problem was more the human ability to aim than the gun's ability. A bullet will travel straight for a very long distance before it loses its power and before its arc renders it useless, but the main factor of anti-aircraft gunnery was the shooter's ability to lead a target and judge its range, and beyond 300 yards the human limits on these abilities made gunnery ineffective unless you were able to throw up a blanket of fire as city defences could. Flak was really only truly effective 'en masse'. A single U-boat gun was effectively useless, which is why there were no U-boat gunnery aces (in fact I believe there were only two U-boats who achieved more than three aircraft kills in their entire time in service). The average anti-aircraft score for a U-boat during a war career was zero. Of those U-boats which achieved any aircraft kills the average score was one aircraft shot down over the service life of the boat, and only 97 U-boats out of 1153 ever shot down a single enemy plane, and nearly a third of those 97 boats were themselves destroyed as a result of the aircraft attack. Plus, since half of all U-boats destroyed were destroyed by aircraft, it's clear that U-boats were almost always better off if they dived rather than engaging an aircraft.

In terms of the game, this means that if players are routinely able to shoot down more than one plane per 10 careers, something about the AA guns' effectiveness is incorrectly modelled. Now I'm not trying for that level of realism, but I am trying to get the AA effectiveness down so that it is somewhat foolhardy to attempt to take on aircraft with a U-boat, as it was in reality.

CCIP · 08-08-05, 11:02 PM

Plus it gives you a good reason to man the things yourself every once in a while! :hmm:

It's fun even, eh, against all that other "hardcore" RUb background.

cunnutazzo · 08-09-05, 03:05 AM

Yesterday I completed my second mission with a IXB and RUB 1.43. I was very surprised for the map lacking some "useful" things, but I understand that a real kaleun didn't have the map update in real time

So now I have to understand more about my and target orientation and these make the game more attractive. Nice sounds, nice graphics, definitely a great mod. Very compatible and no problem at all. SH3 without RUB 1.43 is an arcade game. However, for a newbie is important to play without mods at first, then he can try to go in the fourth dimension.

Evil Duckie · 08-09-05, 03:17 AM

Just started my 2nd patrol, first one with RUb. Commanding a IIA out of Kiel, starting in September '39.

Felt very pleased with myself for being able to sink a C2 on my first patrol, after stalking it for a while and figuring out its course.

Thanks to everybody who participated in this mod, it makes the game so much more challenging (and fun!)

cunnutazzo · 08-09-05, 03:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charos

Most luftwaffe experrten useing the MG151/20 would be 100M or under to their targets useing this gun unlike a U-Boat.

Who are these desperate experten shooting planes under 100 m risking collisions all the time?

dean_acheson · 08-09-05, 06:51 AM

Not to be a stick in the mud, but is it possible to get this mod without the crew fatigue mods? I love everything about RUB but this, I never could quite get the hang of it....
thank you.

Mouseketeer · 08-09-05, 07:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cunnutazzo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charos

Most luftwaffe experrten useing the MG151/20 would be 100M or under to their targets useing this gun unlike a U-Boat.

Who are these desperate experten shooting planes under 100 m risking collisions all the time?

Just to name one Luftwaffe expert: Erich Hartmann

, almost all of fighters aces of WW II say that you need tho be very close to enemy to shoot at him effectively.

cunnutazzo · 08-09-05, 07:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mouseketeer

Just to name one Luftwaffe expert: Erich Hartmann

, almost all of fighters aces of WW II say that you need tho be very close to enemy to shoot at him effectively.

This is a very interesting argument but is slightly OT, so I ask your pardon if I reply again to mouseketeer:
one of those "snipers" was Marseille, he was very close to the enemy plane. Hartmann was on the oriental front and had to be very close to enemy plane, because they had strong armors: IL2 Sturmovik. Not only very close, but "under" their tails (no armors on the inferior surfaces). But the other german aces and normal pilots got their kills at normal distances (from about 200 to 800m). Also, they used to avoid turn fighting preferring boom&zoom tactics.

Schultzy · 08-09-05, 07:42 AM

Just want to add my thanks, love the new version!
Cheers!

dize · 08-09-05, 07:53 AM

considering the ability to down aircraft...
i think it should be noted that there is a big difference between the varying uboat flak armamants. a double mount of twin flak38 plus a quad flak38 IS a formidable array, and it should not be rendered useless.

Nopileo · 08-09-05, 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dize

considering the ability to down aircraft...
i think it should be noted that there is a big difference between the varying uboat flak armamants. a double mount of twin flak38 plus a quad flak38 IS a formidable array, and it should not be rendered useless.

Maybe this could be a 'job' for SH3 Commander? To examine your current sub/conning tower/guns and the date, and then edit the gun efficiency accordingly?

CCIP · 08-09-05, 10:49 AM

It's not useless though. I shot down 4 liberators in 2 days on a U-flak once (after battling each for about 20 minutes and sustaining 4 casualties). So don't think the flak is now completely hopeless - just don't get the idea that it's an offensive weapon, or a defensive one of anything but limited effectiveness.

Use it yourself. It's fun and gives you more possibilities without the unrealistically-accurate AI shooting at longer ranges.

Kondor77 · 08-09-05, 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cunnutazzo

Hartmann was on the oriental front and had to be very close to enemy plane, because they had strong armors: IL2 Sturmovik. Not only very close, but "under" their tails (no armors on the inferior surfaces). But the other german aces and normal pilots got their kills at normal distances (from about 200 to 800m). Also, they used to avoid turn fighting preferring boom&zoom tactics.

If I recall, Hartmann only had about a dozen or so IL-2 kills out of all his 352. What Hartmann preffered was pure Boom and Zoom tactics, while getting as close to the enemy to guarantee a kill in the first burst. 800m is definately pushing it for a kill with the MG151/20, at most it would warn your enemy and allow him to escape.

So back to the topic of the 20mm U-boat cannons, I believe they are the older Oerlikon 20mm, am I correct? Which, if so would even have a shorter effective range than the MG151/20.

Mouseketeer · 08-09-05, 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cunnutazzo

Hartmann was on the oriental front and had to be very close to enemy plane, because they had strong armors: IL2 Sturmovik. Not only very close, but "under" their tails (no armors on the inferior surfaces). But the other german aces and normal pilots got their kills at normal distances (from about 200 to 800m). Also, they used to avoid turn fighting preferring boom&zoom tactics.

Well i will disagree with 200-800m effective firing range but you're right it's offtopic and should placed somwhere on IL2Sturmovik &Pacific Fighters forum or something like that

On u-boat flak guns had 1 purpose (as I think) to distract enemy pilots and making targeting difficult for them, blasting planes is actually a side effect

Best wishes cunnutazzo

Beery · 08-09-05, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dize

considering the ability to down aircraft...
i think it should be noted that there is a big difference between the varying uboat flak armamants. a double mount of twin flak38 plus a quad flak38 IS a formidable array, and it should not be rendered useless.

The thing is, no flak gun on any U-boat was effective. It is a bit of a stretch to say that AA guns are being rendered 'useless' when even the toughest nerf we have employed gives an effective firepower well beyond that of any real boat.

If our adjustments were making it harder than it really was to shoot down aircraft, you might have a point, but I'd say the current mod overstates the U-boats' abilities to shoot down aircraft by at least a factor of ten. If anything, these guns need some even tougher nerf. I just haven't figured out a way to do it based on realistic data yet.

08-08-05, 09:59 PM	#1
Beery Admiral Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Silver Spring, MD, USA (but still a Yorkshireman at heart - tha can allus tell a Yorkshireman...) Posts: 2,497 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Regarding AA effectiveness, the problem was more the human ability to aim than the gun's ability. A bullet will travel straight for a very long distance before it loses its power and before its arc renders it useless, but the main factor of anti-aircraft gunnery was the shooter's ability to lead a target and judge its range, and beyond 300 yards the human limits on these abilities made gunnery ineffective unless you were able to throw up a blanket of fire as city defences could. Flak was really only truly effective 'en masse'. A single U-boat gun was effectively useless, which is why there were no U-boat gunnery aces (in fact I believe there were only two U-boats who achieved more than three aircraft kills in their entire time in service). The average anti-aircraft score for a U-boat during a war career was zero. Of those U-boats which achieved any aircraft kills the average score was one aircraft shot down over the service life of the boat, and only 97 U-boats out of 1153 ever shot down a single enemy plane, and nearly a third of those 97 boats were themselves destroyed as a result of the aircraft attack. Plus, since half of all U-boats destroyed were destroyed by aircraft, it's clear that U-boats were almost always better off if they dived rather than engaging an aircraft. In terms of the game, this means that if players are routinely able to shoot down more than one plane per 10 careers, something about the AA guns' effectiveness is incorrectly modelled. Now I'm not trying for that level of realism, but I am trying to get the AA effectiveness down so that it is somewhat foolhardy to attempt to take on aircraft with a U-boat, as it was in reality. __________________ "More mysterious. Yeah. I'll just try to think, 'Where the hell's the whiskey?'" - Bob Harris, Lost in Translation. "Anyrooad up, ah'll si thi" - Missen.

08-08-05, 11:02 PM	#2
CCIP Navy Seal Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Waterloo, Canada Posts: 8,700 Downloads: 29 Uploads: 2	Plus it gives you a good reason to man the things yourself every once in a while! :hmm: It's fun even, eh, against all that other "hardcore" RUb background. __________________ There are only forty people in the world and five of them are hamburgers. -Don Van Vliet (aka Captain Beefheart)

08-09-05, 03:17 AM	#4
Evil Duckie Watch Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 30 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Just started my 2nd patrol, first one with RUb. Commanding a IIA out of Kiel, starting in September '39. Felt very pleased with myself for being able to sink a C2 on my first patrol, after stalking it for a while and figuring out its course. Thanks to everybody who participated in this mod, it makes the game so much more challenging (and fun!) __________________ Quack!

08-09-05, 10:49 AM	#12
CCIP Navy Seal Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Waterloo, Canada Posts: 8,700 Downloads: 29 Uploads: 2	It's not useless though. I shot down 4 liberators in 2 days on a U-flak once (after battling each for about 20 minutes and sustaining 4 casualties). So don't think the flak is now completely hopeless - just don't get the idea that it's an offensive weapon, or a defensive one of anything but limited effectiveness. Use it yourself. It's fun and gives you more possibilities without the unrealistically-accurate AI shooting at longer ranges. __________________ There are only forty people in the world and five of them are hamburgers. -Don Van Vliet (aka Captain Beefheart)

08-09-05, 03:05 AM	#3
cunnutazzo Soundman Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Pisa, Italy Posts: 142 Downloads: 27 Uploads: 0	Yesterday I completed my second mission with a IXB and RUB 1.43. I was very surprised for the map lacking some "useful" things, but I understand that a real kaleun didn't have the map update in real time So now I have to understand more about my and target orientation and these make the game more attractive. Nice sounds, nice graphics, definitely a great mod. Very compatible and no problem at all. SH3 without RUB 1.43 is an arcade game. However, for a newbie is important to play without mods at first, then he can try to go in the fourth dimension.

08-09-05, 06:51 AM	#6
dean_acheson Ace of the Deep Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Midwest - USA Posts: 1,057 Downloads: 42 Uploads: 0	Not to be a stick in the mud, but is it possible to get this mod without the crew fatigue mods? I love everything about RUB but this, I never could quite get the hang of it.... thank you.

08-09-05, 07:53 AM	#10
dize Machinist's Mate Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: hamburg Posts: 122 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	considering the ability to down aircraft... i think it should be noted that there is a big difference between the varying uboat flak armamants. a double mount of twin flak38 plus a quad flak38 IS a formidable array, and it should not be rendered useless.