[REL] Natural Sinking Mechanics

[switch.dota]

Originally Posted by WernerSobe

As for mogami. That ship was always a problem. It is harder to sink then any other CL, but it is possible even with two torpedoes (placed right). However making it weaker would make all other CL to weak thats the problem.

If i may give you some hints how to sink warships with the new damage system. Expect them being very hard to sink by just flooding. You have better chances to sink them by destabilisation. Make holes on same side, dont try both sides because that will balance the list as you have seen. Instead try to increase the list and capsize the vessel. Try to destabilise the ship by hitting it just below high and heavy superstructures, the high center of mass will cause greater list. Also keep in mind (attention: ace trick!) all warships have pitch stability ballast tanks which are located in front (bow) and back (stern) of the vessel. They are usualy filled with water but once the ship takes damage and is thretened by pitch destabilisation they can be blown. Destroy the right ballast tank and fill it again with water that will greatly reduce the stability and cause the vessel to "dive" below crush depth and basicly crush more compartments one by one.

I tried 8 (eitght) torpedoes evenly spread along the Mogami's port side. The first spread of three torpedoes knocked out the engines and the following 5 torps were fired at 4 hr intervals. The killing blow was a torpedo directly behind the rear-most turret. The CL sank due to the ammo bunker going kaboom.

[vindex]

I tried the sample mission with the "classic" mod. Because of the enhanced torpedo power (2x?) all of the ships I hit blew up and sank on the first hit. If I hit it smack in the middle they invariable cracked in two. Even one I hit off-center had a hole so large it eventually keeled over and sank. Granted they sank in much more interesting ways, but I found they sank easier than vanilla. Is this the way this mod is intended to work?

[WernerSobe]

Originally Posted by Ducimus

>>I realy cant say for sure but i think thats not true. It need to be tested.

Well i left out some information. Der Teddy Bar's pretty knowledgable on this subject.

He made a pretty informative post here:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...7&postcount=34

interestning found. ive set critic flotation everywhere to 0 because i didnt exactly know how it is taken in account. It seems to block the flooding in some cases and makes balancing very difficult.

Lets assume that is true. Then there is also a sideeffect. If a certain amount of damage is done but not enough to beat critic flotation. There is no flooding at all. That would explain odd behavier of critic flotation on some zones. So there is a threeshold when the zone start flooding and if it does it is flooding up to 100%.

However that doesnt match my tests with the deckgun. Assuming that every single shot would fill the zone it hits to 100% because they are all set to 0% critic flotation.

I need to run more tests with torpedo and deckgun damage agains zone hitpoints and critic flotation.

[Ducimus]

Just an FYI, ive started tinkering with it. A preliminary test with changing instances of criticalflotation=0.0 to 0.3 seems the help in regards to instant reports of sinkings even though the target ship is still afloat. Now im not getting the report until the ship is starting to acutally roll over and go down.

[Frederf]

Originally Posted by Ducimus

Just an FYI, ive started tinkering with it. A preliminary test with changing instances of criticalflotation=0.0 to 0.3 seems the help in regards to instant reports of sinkings even though the target ship is still afloat. Now im not getting the report until the ship is starting to acutally roll over and go down.

It would seem that the criticalfloatation value is at what fraction flooding that the crew bails and considers all lost? Setting it to 0.3 would indeed have a happy effect of fewer insta-deaths by crew opinion but they'd wait a while until the water got up to their knees instead of wetting their socks.

[WernerSobe]

Same story. In 2.6 the crew was leaving the ship much later. So people started talking that it could not be real that a ship that is almost entirely under water is still not considered sank, "there is no hope" they said. Well in this version ive made the crew leave the ship sooner. That was intended. And i bet making the ship counted sank later will bring up those voices again.

[Ducimus]

Well to quote DTB again:

If HitPoints for a zone (are set) to 400 and Critic Flotation to 0.1 (10%), then once 41HP damage had been done then the zone will flood to 100%. But it will take a very long time as the flood rate is determined by the % of damage against the FloodingTime value.

So if a compartment has 340 HPs, with a crit float of 0.3 then once 102 points of damage have been done, it will flood to 100%. What was the damage range on torpedo's again?

[Ducimus]

Originally Posted by WernerSobe

Same story. In 2.6 the crew was leaving the ship much later. So people started talking that it could not be real that a ship that is almost entirely under water is still not considered sank, "there is no hope" they said. Well in this version ive made the crew leave the ship sooner. That was intended. And i bet making the ship counted sank later will bring up those voices again.

Im looking at it from a mroe practical view. Personally i thnk the point of any sink mod, is to make ships sink more realistically, but also to reduce tonnage people reap. With the ship being given up so soon, people know exactly when its considered sunk, and will use no more ordinance to dispatch it. But when a ship is sinking, and they dont know for certain, they'll use more ordinance to dispatch it, thereby helping to reduce tonnage to more realistic levels.

[WernerSobe]

this is how it was in 2.6. This ship has not been abandoned yet, it is sinking but not count destroyed. Its crew is even shooting back with their deckgun.

However its not critic flotation its crush depth. Set higher crush depth and the ships will keep going even with decks awash. Actualy that being my taste but there were just to many complains that it couldnt be realistic ships not being destroyed in such state.

[kikn79]

Originally Posted by WernerSobe

this is how it was in 2.6. This ship has not been abandoned yet, it is sinking but not count destroyed. Its crew is even shooting back with their deckgun.

However its not critic flotation its crush depth. Set higher crush depth and the ships will keep going even with decks awash. Actualy that being my taste but there were just to many complains that it couldnt be realistic ships not being destroyed in such state.

Great pic!! I would prefer this. If you were on a ship and were still able to fire, wouldn't you? Read The Last Stand of the Tin Can Sailors they were still firing until the last. Most of they guys were barely away when the ships went under.

Chuck

[vindex]

Any reply on my question about 1-hit sinkings in the sample mission? Anyone else think the torpedoes may be over-powered? I realize I can switch them back quite easily, just interested in other people's (and Werner's) thoughts on the correct game balance.

[switch.dota]

When a Mogami needs 3 torps to stop and another 4 to sink... I can say that the 2x damage mod IS needed.

[vindex]

Okay, but why do medium/large merchant vessels sink so easily in the sample mission?

[WernerSobe]

Originally Posted by vindex

Any reply on my question about 1-hit sinkings in the sample mission? Anyone else think the torpedoes may be over-powered? I realize I can switch them back quite easily, just interested in other people's (and Werner's) thoughts on the correct game balance.

Because there are only 3 tankers all full filled with aircraft fuel. It was not intended ive been just testing the problems with tankers and when ive fixed them i forgot to put the cargo ships back.

Dont worry its just fuel or ammo cargo that will destroy a ship in one hit so that being realistic. In campaign you will come across normal cargo way more often. If you want to test "normal" ships anyway just edit the sample mission with the mission editor and put in some.

[DyingCrow]

i came across weid situation regarding gunboats, (and others like armed trawalers and minesweepers, but ill use gunb. as exemple), in which such of them were hit by 2 torpedoes and remained intact, didnt even sink. i checked the original hitpoint amount for the stock version (50) and your modded version (20480):hmm: that is the same as destroyers i suggest you check this out (if theres a dock or base within the 200 mn patrol radius its always good to check it out, gunboats trawlers and stuff are always good to add to the amount of sunk metal), as i dont think such small thing would withstand an amount of punishment delivered by a torpedo. same for the 2 other examples, 2 torpedoes for a trawler and 3 for a minesweeper (???!!!!!!!). those things are made of wood... its excellent how you managed to give such a realistic sinking behaviour to floating things, but hitpoint suggest structural integrity as well, and that shouldnt be abandoned, at least for small ships that would break for sure.
k,k, they were all bad shots, i admit...