Modding Ethic/Courtesy Rules (Agreed)

[Hitman]

I have opened this topic in order to collect all rules of behaviour that seem to get unanimous approval from modders. The purpose of this topic is just to serve as appendex to the thread opened by Kpt. Lehman here: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=114500, collecting the results of the discussion.

Do not post here, post there and express your opinion. If at least we can agree in some minimums, it will help all the community of modders, veteran and new ones, by having a reference in etiquette.

Thanks. And now go to the main topic and add your feedback.

[Kpt. Lehmann]

What purpose does it serve to close the thread in question without any sort of guidelines drawn out of it.

What message does that send?

Is it going to get shoved under the carpet again?

I think it is a fair subject to see through.

Remove all the personal attacks etc. from that thread and there IS real substance there.

[Onkel Neal]

The original thread was hijacked by too much personal animosity. This thread will serve to allow discussion of the common goal of crafting a modders code of ethics that the majority of people will agree to and adopt.

I suggest that this thread be heavily moderated, too. So any hijacking or snotty remarks be removed.

Let's talk about this without pointing out who did what and when. I think most people will work for this.

Neal

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

The original thread was hijacked by too much personal animosity. This thread will serve to allow discussion of the common goal of crafting a modders code of ethics that the majority of people will agree to and adopt.

I suggest that this thread be heavily moderated, too. So any hijacking or snotty remarks be removed.

Let's talk about this without pointing out who did what and when. I think most people will work for this.

Neal

Thank you.

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Proposals drawn from previous material:

For future mod releases, I think it would be best for the original modders to state in their readme their crediting/use wishes. Doing so will avoid *any* ambiguity.

Said readme needs to be included within the mod download.

For existing releases or new releases which state no use requirements, then:

#1: Ask permission [JJ: via the preferred means outlined in the readme if existing, otherwise via PM or via the modder's mod thread if one exists. If activity is on another board (like a German one, or Ubi's) then find someone that can post there and ask. Some of us are members of various forums for this exact reason].

#2 Do not assume that the individual received the message [JJ: I agree with this, but this policy does not cover where no response is received. If no answer, what's the approach? We need to cover for instances where modders have left the scene. So, use anyway with credits? Use only if x days have passed (a hard one to police considering not all mods contain readme files let alone release dates)? Or not use at all? Hmmm, a toughy. Personally, I think WHERE ALL AVAILABLE AVENUES FOR CONTACT HAVE BEEN EXHAUSTED (email, PM, forum, website...) then use with full credits is the best "win-win" solution for both players and modders. Players will benefit from the feature which the latest modder obviously thinks is good enough to add (they could always drop it if they think the dramas of lack of written permission was not worth the benefit of the inclusion), and the original modder will not go unnoticed. But in this instance the question needs to be closed and specific.]

#3 If permission is denied... accept it... and do not use the mod.

#4 "Blanket crediting" is unacceptable and lazy. If you are not sure how to credit something... ASK!!!

#5 If you are called on to correct your credits... don't get offended... just deal with it and fix it.

#6 If an organized mod package is actively supported by its creator... and you want to make an overlay for it that changes the original package to suit your taste... and then release it... deal with 1-5 first... and don't even think of including the entire original mod package. Doing so leaves the impression that you are the primary creator even if you say otherwise loudly and repeatedly... and is a NO NO!!!

(Note: additional comments by JScones based on original work by Kpt Lehmann.)

One thing though that must be remembered is that these are guidelines only. It's up to the individual modder to decide whether they follow them or not - they are not "enforceable laws". However, just like using JSGME has now become a "modder standard", I am sure that over time most modders will see the benefit in following some community-agreed behaviours.

What weare looking for here, is a common set of basic rules that will apply to everyone... designed to protect and recognize modders who submit original works.

Having rules prevents craptastic trouble... by providing a clarity for modders that has not been present here before.

The final results should ideally be posted in all modding forums.

(editing in progress)

[Onkel Neal]

Good comments and ideas.

If you are a modder, I challenge you to actively participate in this roundtable. There are good questions on how to handle credit, using large pieces of other mods, compilations, negotiating with other modders, handling disagreements, etc.

Post your thoughts here; be professional, work together, and let's see if we can forge a code. If you don't participate, you're not helping the cause.

thanks
Neal

[Hitman]

OK it is now the moment to extract conclusions and something positive out of this whole thing. Now the thread
is open again, and every modder is wellcomed to post his proposals.
Here's a few rules for keeping this thread useful:
1.- Only one reply per person, though you are encouraged to EDIT it later if you like what other proposals
say.
2.- Even if you don't specifically copy rules proposed by others, you can indicate that you approve them.
3.- Anything that is not a proposal of rules will be deleted for off-topic reasons.
4.- The thread will be open one week. Next friday I will close it and write down the rules accepted by ALL.
Hitman

[JCWolf]

The Original Idea for me that haves all that I bellieve its correct
and covers most fields was opriginaly posted by Kpt.Lehmman...


For existing releases or new releases which state no use requirements, then:

#1: Ask permission [JJ: via the preferred means outlined in the readme if existing, otherwise via PM or via the modder's mod thread if one exists. If activity is on another board (like a German one, or Ubi's) then find someone that can post there and ask. Some of us are members of various forums for this exact reason].

#2 Do not assume that the individual received the message [JJ: I agree with this, but this policy does not cover where no response is received. If no answer, what's the approach? We need to cover for instances where modders have left the scene. So, use anyway with credits? Use only if x days have passed (a hard one to police considering not all mods contain readme files let alone release dates)? Or not use at all? Hmmm, a toughy. Personally, I think WHERE ALL AVAILABLE AVENUES FOR CONTACT HAVE BEEN EXHAUSTED (email, PM, forum, website...) then use with full credits is the best "win-win" solution for both players and modders. Players will benefit from the feature which the latest modder obviously thinks is good enough to add (they could always drop it if they think the dramas of lack of written permission was not worth the benefit of the inclusion), and the original modder will not go unnoticed. But in this instance the question needs to be closed and specific.]

#3 If permission is denied... accept it... and do not use the mod.

#4 "Blanket crediting" is unacceptable and lazy. If you are not sure how to credit something... ASK!!!

#5 If you are called on to correct your credits... don't get offended... just deal with it and fix it.

#6 If an organized mod package is actively supported by its creator... and you want to make an overlay for it that changes the original package to suit your taste... and then release it... deal with 1-5 first... and don't even think of including the entire original mod package. Doing so leaves the impression that you are the primary creator even if you say otherwise loudly and repeatedly... and is a NO NO!!!

I will stand by the majority decisions.
I state it here and now.
I will also adopt the statement in a read me as to how any mod I do may be used.
Should I not make that statement, then it is a community release to do with
as one sees fit.

Privateer

[danlisa]

Apart from what I have previously posted.

I would like the term 'Guidelines' adopted rather than 'Rules'.

Apart from the fact that no-one will enforce these 'rules', I feel that the final 'guidelines' are only a recommended format for future modders to follow thus removing the ambiguity when someone wishes to use the originators files.

Just because someone makes their files public does not mean they can be used in a way against their wishes.

[Hitman]

I have been deliberately letting things go on for a while despite the tendency to off-topic that was to be expected, because I wanted that everyone had not only a chance to make contributions, but also to portrait himself accurately in front of the rest. It has happened now enough, and it is time to draw conclussions, not only from what has been said, but also from what has not been said. :hmm:

My main conclussions as external and impartial observer are:

1.- ALL modders have to a certain extent one or two rules of thumb when they make public their work. Nobody yet is a complete anarchist in that regard.

2.- ALL modders don't like too much to see their work degradated

I have a great amount of respect for the work of all who have participated in this thread, but it is sad to see that it has been turned into a Kindergarten as soon as the moderators have let the discussion go on openly.

Now some will not like what I'm going to say now, but here it goes:

The GWX team has been obviously offended sometimes in the past by attitudes and practices from other modders that were far from respectful in courtesy terms. As soon as I saw the original thread by Kpt. Lehman start, I tried to steer the thread towards somethingpositive: A wellcomed set of minimum rules for everyone and from everyone.

But the flow of the conversation has proved to me that a part (not all) of the rules that have been proposed later were tailored specifically against certain person's behaviours. Which is not strange, since those behaviours have been the cause of much anger (Rightfully or not is something I'm not going into). In turn, other people's posts have been clearly made not against the GWX guys proposals -which would have been the logic and correct thing to do- but instead against the GWX guys themselves. And of course, rules have been proposed to ensure that certain actions would now become clearly legitimated if adopted.

I have said it many times already, but I will now repeat it with other words, just to see if the message is correctly received: Subsim.com will NOT go on a witch hunt among moderators. And it is not letting anyone down by doing son.

It is more than obvious that the arrival of SH4 and the shift of public interest to it, plus the arrival of new blood has produced big changes in the community. I saw that when SH2 appeared (BTW I was also a modder in BIG projects back then), later when SH3 appeared, and I'm seeing it now. Nihil novum sub solem, used the romans to say (Nothing new under the sun). Apparently, the lack of big projects to be started (Almost anything that could be done has been done) has given some people time to remember the old pending affairs. But there is also a big amount of silent observers and readers of the SH3 that are currently astonished and disgusted to see how all this has now surfaced.

And it has to come to and end, even if for *public health* reasons. The forum has to recover its calm, friendly, helpful and productive path as soon as possible. Otherwise, we will have the risk of having it turned in the future into a dinosaurs-graveyard, where angry ex-modders try unendlessly to resolve their pending queries in endlessly disputes and flaming posts, and new users do not even dare to post.

I'm closing this thread for exactly one day. Everyone put the anger aside and re-read everything, think well a proposal, and write it down. There were VERY good ones, so it is not difficult. Tomorrow I will open the thread and any post that does not have in it a list of proposals will be deleted for off-topic reasons.

Once all proposals have been done, I personally will read down them and see if there are rules in common to all proposals. If there are, I will put them in a list and stick them as officially recommended practices and ethics. No democratics or such. This is not a matter of majorites, it is something to be put up by unanimous consensus. Otherwise subsim.com will wash his hands and forget the idea, because all subsim users have the same rights.

That's all, folks. Take it or leave it.:hmm: