Re-introducing the Iron Cross?

[GlobalExplorer]

Originally Posted by Boris

I think you are seated too deeply in the German general dislike of militarism

Look, I have spent most of my life studying and dreaming about war/military and I am totally fascinated by military strategy, so much that sometimes I believe my fate was to at least aspire to be a general or something.

Still, I can't see how it could be a bad thing to dislike militarism or how militarism can be good? (So yes, you are right in your assessment Boris)

[GlobalExplorer]

And I am sure you would be less indifferent to these images if you had lived in the GDR

[August]

Originally Posted by GlobalExplorer

Still, I can't see how it could be a bad thing to dislike militarism or how militarism can be good?

I'd say it all depends on how you define the word "militarism".

From Wiki:

Militarism is the "belief or desire of a government or people that a country should maintain a strong military capability and be prepared to use it aggressively to defend or promote national interests" [Source: Apple Dictionary, Version 1.0.2]. It has also been defined as "aggressiveness that involves the threat of using military force" Online die.net dictionary, as well as "Glorification of the ideals of a professional military class" and "Predominance of the armed forces in the administration or policy of the state" American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language.

Four different definitions. Only a couple of those could be considered "bad".

[ToySoldier]

Good morning out there!

After reading the thread here I just surfed a bit throu the net ... and steped over the the spiegel-online forum (a newsjournal here in the good ol´germany) I nearly get sick!
And now I´m sorry that most of you pals here can´t read german, so that you could understand how we german think!
I´m reanecting 2 german military epochs (1813 - 1815; and 1907-1918) and you can´t imaging how people name you for this here in germany!
Also standing openly to be reserv of the Bundeswehr and went to a reserv-meeting in uniform throu the city to get there ... the harmlesses thing is to be looked at as beeing alien!
I think most of the foreign readers here have a differend view of german history than we germans ourself!
The problem is you can´t change puplik view as long as there are still schoolbooks out of the 70s ....

In diesem Sinne
Gott mit Uns
Frank B. aus K.

[Skybird]

I agree on the cult the GDr had formed around medals, military medals, civilian ones, etc - it was ridiculous. There were so many different ones. And the GDR showed how well militarism could be used to press society into a totalitarian form. However I fail to see how the inplementation of one (only one, right now there is zero! rien! null! nada!) dedicated military medal for valour could be compared to that. The GDR exactly did what I want not: introducing a piece of tin witghout tradition behind it, and thus: without any meaning. After all, giving a medal is a symbolic act by which society expresses to the soldiers that it is supporting and is standing behind the running operation, or better: the mere reason why a military is being maintained. It also is meant to say: "We take note of what YOU have done, and we thank you for that and appreciate the risk you accepted". As I said earlier, it cannot replace good equipement, training, and good care-taking after return. But the symbolic act itself is more important to sicety itself than to the single soldier (also said before). anbd here, it cannot be replaced by anything. there is nothing that could replace the function of this symbolic act. and for the society it means a constant reevaluation of the running operation, war, mission, and if the operation is found to be justified, the act has a carthatic effect for society, saying: we don'T do it easy-minded, we care for what is happening, we see this action as necessary by our values and cultural standards. It draws public attention to the issue. Right now, the population is getting lulled over Afghnaistan. It is being lied to, and allows to get lied to. Imagine that some BW members now gets the first Iron Cross for soemthing he/her has done in combat in Afghanistan, imagine the public debate it would trigger, very much for the same doubts GlobalExplorer has expressed. Puplic pressure would become very big that politicians start talking clear and straight, and their would be pressure to check and evaluate the motives by which the current mission is run. All this just from a controversy around the IC. such a function is desperately needed over here. Not that it is not needed in other nations as well...

GlobalExplorer in so far is right that in germany the military is not "admired". Many even object it. However, in the past 10, 15 years, the negative sentiments to wards the BW that I remember from my schooldays, have eased out a bit, it is not as bad as it once has been anymore. For me, military is a necessary evil. That's why I respect it and do not think bad of it, but do not want to see it on the streets, parading. Modesty is a virtue, here. Neither is it the only way for a man to prove himself, nor does it turn people into better, more noble beings, it also is not an option described as "acceptable a normal business". It is not one amongst other, but the ultimate, final, hopefully avoided tool of politics. But we cannot work around needing a military, and sometimes we better even should will to use it. Not as easy-minded as america is using it: what began justified in Afghnaistan, was let down incompetently in favour of the great stupidity in Iraq. These examples illustrate what German forces have the historic responsibility not to contribute to. the detoriation in Afghnaistan and the war in Iraq are prime examples of easymindedness. The problem right now is that the German military get abused for political opportunism. We send it to afghanistan, but politicians do not dare to call Afghanistan a "war." There is no war in the south, there is "unstability". There are no combat troops doing fighting, there are troops trying to contribute to improvement of the stability. If the Germans take over the rapid reaction force from the Norwegians - pretty much sure - it is not combat troops being send into a combat mission - what it is, by the Norwegian'S record - but it is any other blabla but no war and no combat troops - says the defense minister.

From the wikipedia definitions of "militarism", I must refuse any of these to be acceptable. You operate your military aggressively in case of war, I believe in taking the initiave and to act instead of reacting. but the definitions suggest to use military aggressively as a political tool and give it a special, powerful, influetnial status in the government. That is not only sometimes to be considered bad, but always.

[AntEater]

Strange thing about the Bundeswehr is that it seems to be scared of the public.

I think most people are wrong when saying that Germany is antimilitaristic. Action and war movies are as popular as in any other country and kids to play with toy guns and shooters and military themed games are very popular.
The famous "silent majority" is indifferent to the Bundeswehr, simply because the armed forces are not very present in the public.
Generally, the average guy has nothing against the armed forces and garrison towns staunchly support "their" troops. Its just that you can safely spend a year in Germany without seeing any soldier at all. The idea of a citizen army is simply bull****, if only one in ten people gets drafted and even that one can object. Of around two dozen guys I know at university, only three including myself served in the military as conscripts. By all means, avoiding conscription is so easy that you can consider the bundeswehr an all-volunteer army with a very inefficient recruiting method. On the other hand, this improves the far too short 9 month conscription period. No one today serves nine months, if you go, you either enlist for longer (up to 23 months, I did 14) or you become professional or you don't join up at all.
A small vocal elite in the media is staunchly against the armed forces, true.
Problem is, with that elite that the anti-bundeswehr bias is not limited to the left.
Basically, right wingers don't take the Bundeswehr serious because it is not like the Wehrmacht and left wingers hate the Bundeswehr because it is too much like the Wehrmacht


The Problem with the Wehrmacht is twofold: First of course the 2nd word war. Today, the leftist side does not differ anymore between soldiers and nazi executioners. Maybe the difference was too accentuated in the postwar years but to throw the common front soldier together with a death camp guard is unfair.
Second problem is the effectiveness. Regardless of political direction, every german regards the Wehrmacht as the most efficient army of all times.
Every successor organisation will have a tough time against such competition and if it assumes a "mostly harmless" mantle as the Bundeswehr does, it will be ridiculed.
Germans simply admire efficiency, and the Bundeswehr only makes headlines with accidents and scandals and with overblown political correctness.
In my opinion, this whole philosophical crap is unecessary and the Bundeswehr would be far better off by just being an army like everyone else.

Just some examples:
- while old time songs like the Panzerlied are still sung, verses dealing with dying for your country have been removed.
- during open days, units sometimes stage weapons demonstrations where visitors can handle rifles, pistols and other firearms. Sofar the only time I handled a G-36. But when you step up, the soldiers have to ask "are you over 18?" to every visitor because it would be totally blasphemous to let a kid handle a firearm. Notions of Hitler youth and the likes. The fact that those same kids all have BB G-36s and play FPS all day hasn't arrived yet.#
- official Bundeswehr commercials and recruiting vids all painstakingly avoid "military" words and rather try to portrait service as just "a good job". Problem with that is that you can't fight a shooting war with people who want a well paid job. There were serveral disciplinary problems in Afghanistan with people who didn't seem to realize what they were getting into. A professional job in the armed forces is something for warriors. Someone who has problems with the thought of having to use weapons against other human beings shouldn't join up and certainly should not be encouraged to join. Especially troublesome are the "Mail order ranks" (Neckermann-Dienstgrade) where specialists start at a higher rank. Instant feldwebels are simply not taken serious by real NCOs.

But this is rather a top down problem. In the 1970s, when the Bundeswehr was at peak efficiency, antimilitarism and pacifisim were really strong and the Bundeswehr didn't give a damn. It took 20 years for pacifism to arrive at the top of the Bundeswehr while the popular movement is all but dead. But the Leutnants of 1970s are the generals of today and apparently they got a good scare back then.
Also, it is a generation problem. During my service I met some really good younger officers and those in service now are of a different breed.
It always seem to me that young (post 2000) officers are a great deal more "prussian" than the old west cold war officers. You could safely greet a Fregattenkapitän with "moin" at an active naval base while a Leutnant would throw a fit if you didn't properly salute him.
This has also a lot to do with the fact that a large percentage of today's officers are east German. First of all, east germans do not have as many complexes as west germans and second, they traditionally have a totally different image of how an army should be run than in the west, especially if their fathers were in the NVA.
I remember a lot of conversations like "this is a joke, the NVA was a real army" with 20 year old guys who were 9 when the wall fell.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by AntEater

Basically, right wingers don't take the Bundeswehr serious because it is not like the Wehrmacht and left wingers hate the Bundeswehr because it is too much like the Wehrmacht

Nice summary!

Especially troublesome are the "Mail order ranks" (Neckermann-Dienstgrade) where specialists start at a higher rank. Instant feldwebels are simply not taken serious by real NCOs.

What the...? I did not even know that such things existed. Are they spared from basic training, or do they run it at already higher ranks?

I have a loose contact to two officers, who both have had time in Afghanistan. One of them said "We are running lower and lower on good seargents." I need to ask him next time if he meant it regarding quality, or quantity.

[AntEater]

When I served, this thing was limited to "Neckermann-Hauptgefreite", who were inevitably scorned by real Hauptgefreite like me.
Apparently right now they have instant Feldwebel, and apparently there's a single "instant major" (female) in the Luftwaffe.
But those Neckermanns are usually limited to technical specialities, not combat troops.
The Neckermann Major, for example, is a flight safety officer for the Flugbereitschaft, and formerly worked in the same position for Lufthansa, IMHO.
But since these people have the same rank from the day of enlistment it would be funny:
"Verdammt, Herr Major, wie sieht ihr Spind aus? Ist da ne Bombe eingeschlagen? Wenn das in fünf Minuten noch so aussieht platz mir der Kragen!"
:rotfl:

[GlobalExplorer]

As to Skybirds posts, I hope we are still discussing on the same topic. All my arguments were concerning the reintroduction of the Iron Cross, not against the Bundeswehr. If you want new military orders, that's fine and probably overdue.

Originally Posted by AntEater

Basically, right wingers don't take the Bundeswehr serious because it is not like the Wehrmacht and left wingers hate the Bundeswehr because it is too much like the Wehrmacht

I guess we can leave the german left wing out of our discussion - really not worth our time. But who would want the Bundeswehr to be more like the Wehrmacht?

Originally Posted by AntEater

The Problem with the Wehrmacht is twofold: First of course the 2nd word war. Today, the leftist side does not differ anymore between soldiers and nazi executioners.

I must side with you on this. To all uninitiated, see controversy the about the "Wehrmacht-Austellung" etc.
http://www.konservativ.de/wma/ow_dokum.htm

Really sad how someoene will push the "Nazi" button and the whole nation will jump. My grandfather for example was in the Wehrmacht exactly because he was not a Nazi. Otherwise he could had taken a quiet post in his village, but he refused and preferred to get drafted.

Originally Posted by AntEater

In my opinion, this whole philosophical crap is unecessary and the Bundeswehr would be far better off by just being an army like everyone else.

Elaborate. Also take a closer look at our constitution and what this "Staatsbürger in Uniform" thing means.

Originally Posted by AntEater

First of all, east germans do not have as many complexes as west germans and second, they traditionally have a totally different image of how an army should be run than in the west, especially if their fathers were in the NVA.
I remember a lot of conversations like "this is a joke, the NVA was a real army" with 20 year old guys who were 9 when the wall fell.

I agree that the NVA (or it shouldn't it be NPA?) was much more like a real army than the Bundeswehr. Born in '73 my draft would have been due around '91- '93, but in the school holidays '88 and '89 I was already sent into camps where we got drilled by real NVA officers.

But please don't start to romanticize about the NVA or it's really getting stupid!

[AntEater]

The "Staatsbürger in Uniform" concept is simply not up to realities anymore, if it ever was.
Keep in mind, that in 1955 resistance against rearmament was not limited to leftist/socialist circles. Many conservatives resisted rearmament as well, like Martin Niemöller.
The citizen soldier army and "innere Führung" was some workaround to "sell" rearmament to the populace. Innere Führung was also a sexy name to continue prussian principles like Auftragstaktik (mission based tactics) without mentioning Prussia. "Alter Wein in neuen Schläuchen"
Basically, armed forces are a necessary evil because of the threat of communism.
Service was not to be the thing of a professional military caste and the military not a "continuation of politics by other means", but rather a conscious decision to defend freedom and democracy against dictatorship by means of deterrence.
Military decorations were not necessary because the only war that would happen would most likely end Germany, if not the world alltogether.
Under that rationale, the armed forces of germany should have been disbanded after reunification or at least after the last soviet soldier left Germany.
The reason for the existence of the Bundeswehr, as originally envisioned, had disappeared.
This did not happen, yet the political caste clings to this whole belief system.
As you mentioned the constitution, the same thing here. It was called "basic law" to underline the provisional nature of it pending reunification. But after that happened, nobody had the courage to start fresh and so they simply kept the name. But of course de facto the Grundgesetz IS a constitution and never was anything else.
That is what I mean with a "normal" army. An army goes where the politicians decide and if ordered, it fights a war. If someone has a problem with that, he's free not to have anything to do with that.
Simply put, the only way Germany could keep up the old way of thinking would be to drop out of NATO and adopt a Switzerland or Sweden like Neutrality. But if you're in NATO and want to be a big player in the world and even a seat in the security council, you can't be a moral high grounder.
And maybe I'm simply a bit more of a prussia fan than you are, even if I consider myself a leftist, at least regarding social and economic policies.
I can't romanticize about the NVA since I was born in the west, I can only relate what my GDR-born comrades in military service told me and what my east german relatives told me.
Also, it seems to me that many east germans are mercifully free of all those "sins of the past" guilt complexes we Wessis carry around with us.

[GlobalExplorer]

I agree that something has to happen about the role of the Bundeswehr. I can see our partners in NATO are getting impatient, and righteously so.

I would say right on but let the ghost of Prussia rest. Instead it's about time we start a new tradition with a professional army, new symbolics like e.g. a "Bundeswehrkreuz" and by putting an end to the equalization of army and militarism.

But we are really fools if we dont listen to the elders in this questions. I just told my father about this discussion (he was a HJ flak gunner in WWII) and he said: nuts. My late grandfather would probably have slapped me on the back of my head and said: "shut up. if you had been in Russia for one day you would not talk like that".

[AntEater]

Problem is, you can't just do that.
If Germany were a new nation like Israel, maybe, but we're not.
Even the soviet union readopted czarist traditions in WW2.
Also I don't see Prussia as something evil. Wilhelmian militarism was, but that is just an episode and most other nations on the planet were not different at the time.
Actually if there's anything worth remembering and using as an example in Germany after the middle ages, it is Prussia. The rest of Germany pretty much resembled present day Caucasus or Balkans.
Also, our own state hasn't grown out of nothing. The legal system and the system of administration are all prussian. The constitution is from 1949, but the legal framework of our republic is far older, with some laws dating back to the aftermath of the 1848 revolution (for example the GVG).
The Bundeswehr might have a lot of US influence, but the basic way of doing things is Prussian, like mission-based tactics, strong reliance on small unit leadership and emphasizing movement over firepower.
The federal republic of Germany hasn't been created out of nothing, not even the GDR was.

[GlobalExplorer]

Originally Posted by AntEater

Also, it seems to me that many east germans are mercifully free of all those "sins of the past" guilt complexes we Wessis carry around with us.

I really don't think so. We had the topic drilled into our heads from Kindergarten. It's just expressed differently, or not expressed at all. The GDR education tried to suppress individual political opinions, thats why the east german mind can readily swing to the extreme right or left. If you don't have an opinion you can be a fascist as well as a communist, depending on the circumstances. That was the principle in the Third Reich and in the GDR it was not that different.

[GlobalExplorer]

Originally Posted by AntEater

Also I don't see Prussia as something evil. Wilhelmian militarism was, but that is just an episode and most other nations on the planet were not different at the time.

I also don't think it's evil - I just don't think we need it back. I feel a Prussian by birth - my roots are in the West-Prussian area that lies now in Poland, and for sure the dry Prussian mentality is still alive here in Berlin / Brandenburg.

I mean what could we lose if we restore no more prussian traditions? Apart from nostalgic feelings, not much.

But what could we lose if we restore the tradition? Much more, as history has taught us.

[August]

Originally Posted by GlobalExplorer

I also don't think it's evil - I just don't think we need it back. I feel a Prussian by birth - my roots are in the West-Prussian area that lies now in Poland, and for sure the dry Prussian mentality is still alive here in Berlin / Brandenburg.

I mean what could we lose if we restore no more prussian traditions? Apart from nostalgic feelings, not much.

But what could we lose if we restore the tradition? Much more, as history has taught us.

So you're basically making the "slippery slope" argument where if they bring back the IC its straight downhill to the 4th reich?