Iraqi WMDs revisited

[The Avon Lady]

Bigfoot's buddy says:

But I can assure you, they didn’t find everything. Because of his rapid rebuilding capabilities, Saddam managed to hide many of these weapons, along with the raw materials for building weapons of mass destruction. During the times when these weapons were not actually in production – mainly because of the threat posed by the United Nations inspectors – Saddam gave orders that the scientists who had been working on these programmes were to keep their plans, diagrams, formulas, raw materials and everything else in highly secure underground vaults so that they could continue their work the minute they were no longer being observed...

If Saddam ever suspected that there was any chance the inspectors would find something, he would have everything destroyed. But even then, nothing was really destroyed: the scientists had the knowledge and the budget, and when the time was right they would simply begin again. This was even true in the nuclear weapons programme. Even though we had not yet developed actual nuclear warheads, we were working on them. We had some components, and Saddam had developed sources in Europe, Asia and America who were willing to supply whatever we needed.

Read it all:

Melanie Phillips Diary: Saddam's Secrets.

Bah! What does Saddam's former Air Force Vice Marshal know anyway, right Mikey?

[Iceman]

I see that you fail to see....

Originally Posted by Tchocky

What I fail to see is the necessity of posting the 9/11 terrorists on a thread about Iraqi arms.

I dont see the connection.

The statement I made was about WMD and the definitions...

Does it matter where or what country it comes from?

The connection is Islam...and the twisted warped evil view it takes on the world....and it is your free choice to ignore this.

[Kapitan]

The connection is Islam...and the twisted warped evil view it takes on the world....and it is your free choice to ignore this

The connection is islam but you cant tar everyone with the same brush, you christian yes so your a pacifist some one who hates to fight and who loves god ect ect.

Did you know im the same gawd dam religion, how the heck can you lay the blame soley on a person simply because of thier religion?

if you walked down street and crossed over cause a muslim was walking on the same side because you were scared he / she might blow themselves up dont you even think that you are offending them ?

They might be decent folk i know muslims who are decent there was a few who went to my school and two were from afghanistan ! if i detoured to avoid them, then i could be labeld couldnt i!

Basicaly the way you said this it seems you are totaly against islamic people.

[Kapitan]

Oh and i forgot islam isnt warped its george bush, i wouldnt be surprised if we went into iran tommorrow libya next tuesday and europe the following friday, thats all bush wants war war war if anyone is a warmonger its him, he creates his own problems and expects the rest of the world to bail him out, which might i add we stupidly do !

[scandium]

Originally Posted by The Avon Lady

Bigfoot's buddy says:

But I can assure you, they didn’t find everything. Because of his rapid rebuilding capabilities, Saddam managed to hide many of these weapons, along with the raw materials for building weapons of mass destruction. During the times when these weapons were not actually in production – mainly because of the threat posed by the United Nations inspectors – Saddam gave orders that the scientists who had been working on these programmes were to keep their plans, diagrams, formulas, raw materials and everything else in highly secure underground vaults so that they could continue their work the minute they were no longer being observed...

If Saddam ever suspected that there was any chance the inspectors would find something, he would have everything destroyed. But even then, nothing was really destroyed: the scientists had the knowledge and the budget, and when the time was right they would simply begin again. This was even true in the nuclear weapons programme. Even though we had not yet developed actual nuclear warheads, we were working on them. We had some components, and Saddam had developed sources in Europe, Asia and America who were willing to supply whatever we needed.

Read it all:

Melanie Phillips Diary: Saddam's Secrets.

Bah! What does Saddam's former Air Force Vice Marshal know anyway, right Mikey?

I guess it comes down to which is more credible: David Kay and his team who've scoured Iraq and interogated members of the regime, or an uverified book written by a single Iraqi defector and published by a small christian publishing firm. Personally I put about as much stock into this as I would a similar book written by Baghdad Bob.

[The Avon Lady]

Originally Posted by scandium

I guess it comes down to which is more credible: David Kay and his team who've scoured Iraq and interogated members of the regime, or an uverified book written by a single Iraqi defector and published by a small christian publishing firm. Personally I put about as much stock into this as I would a similar book written by Baghdad Bob.

I suggest you read exactly what David Kay said very carefully. What Kay says does not contradict what a senior high ranking Iraqi airforce general claimed. To sum it up, read What David Kay really said, by Charles Krauthammer.

And to throw in another old piece of the puzzle, almost ignored by the major press agencies, have a peak here and follow the links.

And if you think that anti-Syrian dissidents could never provide you with serious reliable intel, go back and read the David Kay transcript, where he reminds all of us who told the world about Iran's nuclear program - and it wasn't the CIA or MI5.

But go ahead. Dismiss a book because it's published by a "small christian publishing firm." How blinkered can you get?!

[The Avon Lady]

It seems I need to make a small retraction. I said that David Kay does not contradict what Vice General Sada has been claiming.

My mistake.

David Kay is much in agreement with Sada.

[scandium]

Originally Posted by The Avon Lady

But go ahead. Dismiss a book because it's published by a "small christian publishing firm." How blinkered can you get?!

You left out the part I mentioned about it being written by a former Iraqi henchman and his claims not having any independent verification. The usual standard of evidence for a claim to be taken seriously is independent corroboration and there is none here, so why shouldn't I dismiss it?

[scandium]

Originally Posted by The Avon Lady

It seems I need to make a small retraction. I said that David Kay does not contradict what Vice General Sada has been claiming.

My mistake.

David Kay is much in agreement with Sada.

This is what Kay says in that article:

"We are not talking about a large stockpile of weapons," he said. "But we know from some of the interrogations of former Iraqi officials that a lot of material went to Syria before the war, including some components of Saddam's WMD programme. Precisely what went to Syria, and what has happened to it, is a major issue that needs to be resolved"

How does this corroborate anything when Kay can't state exactly what supposedly went to Syria? He says we know from some of the interrogations of former Iraqi officials, and this guy Sada is presumably one of those officials... so Sada says... and Kay says basically that people like Sadda are saying... and this is proof? So if I say Bigfoot exists and someone confirms I said that, then by this standard of "proof" Bigfoot must exist. Boggling.

[The Avon Lady]

Originally Posted by scandium

This is what Kay says in that article:

"We are not talking about a large stockpile of weapons," he said. "But we know from some of the interrogations of former Iraqi officials that a lot of material went to Syria before the war, including some components of Saddam's WMD programme. Precisely what went to Syria, and what has happened to it, is a major issue that needs to be resolved"

How does this corroborate anything when Kay can't state exactly what supposedly went to Syria? He says we know from some of the interrogations of former Iraqi officials, and this guy Sada is presumably one of those officials... so Sada says... and Kay says basically that people like Sadda are saying... and this is proof? So if I say Bigfoot exists and someone confirms I said that, then by this standard of "proof" Bigfoot must exist. Boggling.

Your logic is indeed boggling.

First you say you'd rather believe in Kay than in some former Iraqi vice general. Then you say that Kay's informational is surely unreliable because certainly this guy Sada is in your exact words "presumably one of those officials".

Make up your mind.

BTW, If Sada is "presumably one of those officials", how many more were there? Did Kay's interviews with them indicate that Sada was not the only one to state that Syria was involved? Or may this simply be a case of 10 bigfoots dancing around David Kay, of whom you stated:

"I guess it comes down to which is more credible: David Kay and his team who've scoured Iraq and interogated members of the regime."

Actually, you're not boggling. You're juggling. Advice: keep your eye on the ball. Lord knows the west's intel agencies didn't.

[scandium]

Originally Posted by The Avon Lady

Your logic is indeed boggling.

First you say you'd rather believe in Kay than in some former Iraqi vice general. Then you say that Kay's informational is surely unreliable because certainly this guy Sada is in your exact words "presumably one of those officials".

Make up your mind.

BTW, If Sada is "presumably one of those officials", how many more were there? Did Kay's interviews with them indicate that Sada was not the only one to state that Syria was involved? Or may this simply be a case of 10 bigfoots dancing around David Kay, of whom you stated:

"I guess it comes down to which is more credible: David Kay and his team who've scoured Iraq and interogated members of the regime."

Actually, you're not boggling. You're juggling. Advice: keep your eye on the ball. Lord knows the west's intel agencies didn't.

Its pretty straight forward actually, at least to me: Kay says only that based on interrogations, some components went to Syria. However he doesn't indicate exactly what, and he states clearly that this is only based on interrogations. He never says definitively that anything went to Syria, nor does he claim anything has corroborated these interrogations. Therefore I can accept exactly what he's saying at face value, and this doesn't contradict my unwillingness to believe whatever was told to him in these interrogations as nowhere does he say that info has been verified. In fact, he says this is something that still needs to be resolved. Which is exactly my own position: that nothing has yet been proven as far as these claims that Iraqi WMD were shipped to Syria.

[The Avon Lady]

What you have now stated is pretty much my opinion.

These are things that need to be resolved.

Nothing has been proven yet.

As I said in the very first sentence of this thread:

"There have been a number of recent relevant stories and documentation regarding the existance or not of Iraq's WMDs."

[Mike 'Red Ocktober' Hense]

As I said in the very first sentence of this thread:

"There have been a number of recent relevant stories and documentation regarding the existance or not of Iraq's WMDs."

yes... the media is repleat with em... just as the media is full of stories of Bigfoot sightings, UFO sightings... Close Encounters...

only an irrational mentality would use these as a basis for any arguement...

and miss philips is a journalist... not an authority on any military weaponry, iraq, or the geopolitical nature of the hussien regime...

again, only an irrational mentality would use anything as a sound basis for any arguement on this topic...

your ability to operate in a contimuum that ignores fact is absoulutely amazing...


--Mike

[The Avon Lady]

Originally Posted by Mike 'Red Ocktober' Hense

yes... the media is repleat with em... just as the media is full of stories of Bigfoot sightings, UFO sightings... Close Encounters...

I'm sorry but I do not subscribe to the National Enquirer. Send me your old copies.

only an irrational mentality would use these as a basis for any arguement...

An emotionally irrational statement in itself.

and miss philips is a journalist... not an authority on any military weaponry, iraq, or the geopolitical nature of the hussien regime...

So then we can discount all journalistic sources around the world for news, with that logic.

Oh well, maybe it really is time to subscribe to National Enquirer.

again, only an irrational mentality would use anything as a sound basis for any arguement on this topic...

David Kay is irrational. General Sada is irrational. The translators of documents found so far in the FMSO archives are irrational. Paul Gaubatz, interviewed in the 1st article I linked to at the start of the thread, is irrational.

Mike, here, is rational.

End of argument.

your ability to operate in a contimuum that ignores fact is absoulutely amazing...

:rotfl:

[Mike 'Red Ocktober' Hense]

just as i thought Avon...

in the light of irrefutable facts, you have nothing to say... and it took you all of 8 lines to say it in.

--Mike