Hiroshima

[Von Tonner]

Originally Posted by P_Funk

It is true that it ended the war prematurely, but I don't see why they couldn't have first made a demonstration of the bomb by dropping it on say an all military target and said "see that? Tokyo is next." At the very least attempting to avoid killing 150k civilians outright.

After the Hiroshima bombing, President Truman announced, "If they do not not accept our terms, they may expect a rain of ruin from the air the likes of which has never been seen on this earth." On August 8, 1945, leaflets were dropped and warnings were given to Japan by Radio Saipan. (The area of Nagasaki did not receive warning leaflets until August 10, though the leaflet campaign covering the whole country was over a month into its operations.)[35][36]
The Japanese government still did not react to the Potsdam Declaration. Emperor Hirohito, the government and the War council were considering four conditions for surrender : the preservation of the kokutai (Imperial institution and national polity), assumption by the Imperial Headquarters of responsibility for disarmament and demobilization, no occupation and delegation to the Japanese government of the punishment of war criminals.
(Wikipedia)



Hiroshima was also the HQ to the Second Army and Regional Army; was a major weapons depot and was a "key centre to shipping".

[StdDev]

Originally Posted by P_Funk

It is true that it ended the war prematurely, but I don't see why they couldn't have first made a demonstration of the bomb by dropping it on say an all military target and said "see that? Tokyo is next." At the very least attempting to avoid killing 150k civilians outright.

I dont think it ended the war prematurely.. there is never a "too soon" to end a war! Lets just say that the bombings hastened the end of the war.

As for your proposed demonstration..
(from Wikipedia)
the strategic-bombing program that had devastated Germany's industrial complexes was ineffective in Japan where two-thirds of industry was dispersed in homes and small factories employing less than thirty workers.

The civilian casualties had already been racked up in the fire bombings of Tokyo.. which killed more civilians than the two A bombs combined.

There was also pressure to end the Pacific war before Russia could get into it and therefore claim any of the "victors spoils".
Russia had already demonstrated its territorial aggressiveness in Europe after Germany surrendered.

[P_Funk]

Originally Posted by StdDev

I dont think it ended the war prematurely.. there is never a "too soon" to end a war! Lets just say that the bombings hastened the end of the war.

Thats of course NOT what I meant.

The civilian casualties had already been racked up in the fire bombings of Tokyo.. which killed more civilians than the two A bombs combined.

Yes well who said the fire bombings were any better?[/quote]

[Heibges]

Only the future can judge whether dropping the bomb was right or not.

If a nuclear war happens to break out at some point, then the United States set the wrong precedent.

But then it won't matter anyway.

[bradclark1]

Originally Posted by Heibges

Only the future can judge whether dropping the bomb was right or not.

The future is now.

[Chock]

It's difficult to put yourself in the shoes of people at the time, and that is what you have to do when thinking about how the two atomic bombs were used in WW2. Most of my relatives who served in the Pacific theatre (sadly all now deceased), wouldn't have p*ssed on a Japanese person if they were on fire as a result of what they saw and experienced when fighting the Japanese, particularly those who ended up as POWs, and while this may seem harsh to us, it is nevertheless true.

Having endured several years of war in which barely a family in the entire world hadn't experienced some tragedy or other, it's obvious that most people on the Allied side would have wholeheartedly approved of the attacks, although with the caveat that most people at the time would have had little understanding of the effects of radioactivity, or the tremendous damage from blast and fire.

It should be noted that several raids using conventional munitions exacted larger initial death tolls than the atomic attacks, including one on Dresden and one on Tokyo, both of which started firestorms.

Hard as it seems, some good has come out of the attacks, in that it has served to show people what a terrible thing a nuclear weapon is.

In the UK, Group Captain Leonard Cheshire, who was invited as an observer on one of the nuclear raids, said that it made him very anti-war, and in fact ended up driving him to pursue a very humanitarian life afterwards, culminating in his creation of the Leonard Cheshire Foundation, which provides charity sheltered housing for the infirm in the UK. An organisation from which many thousands of people have benefitted (and still do).

Chock

[micky1up]

Originally Posted by Biggles

I'm sure he didn't mean anything wrong with it, but "happy" is indeed the wrong word. Let us not forget people....Remember Hiroshima...Remember Nagasaki....and let us hope that there will be NO MORE nuclear weapons used in war.

well before you make statements remember the estimate of how many soldiers would have died in an invasion of japan and the its in the millions it may sound like screwd logic but those two atomic weapons saved many lives

[w-subcommander]

Originally Posted by micky1up

well before you make statements remember the estimate of how many soldiers would have died in an invasion of japan and the its in the millions it may sound like screwd logic but those two atomic weapons saved many lives

According novadays researches ( check History International) "your" point of view is questionable. In my opinion Truman action(s) is directly in crimes against humanity zone( killing civilians) Very strange logical arguments like they strarted it first and it will save a lot of lives in future.... Anyway Hiroshima had to be bombed and ... Truman had to be in the jail for it!!!!
I am sometimes ashamed looking at idiots who are proclaming that we live in the best country in the world! It is good for internal propaganda, but when they declare it outside the country .... LOL:rotfl:
Why we think that our democracy standards are the best? Now we are ordering serbs to cut part of its country!!! Because it is in their best interests - it is easier to manage in smaller country!!!
America is the most beautiful and just a little bit shameless. Who will control the controllers?
PS
"Comparing to Europe USA have a some lack of culture. Comparing to USA Europe has a lack of civilization."German engineer visiting USA in 1930s.

[Letum]

Originally Posted by micky1up

well before you make statements remember the estimate of how many soldiers would have died in an invasion of japan and the its in the millions it may sound like screwd logic but those two atomic weapons saved many lives

You can not save lives by boming people!

You can save lives by not bombing people and not invadeing Japan!

[bradclark1]

Originally Posted by w-subcommander

According novadays researches ( check History International) "your" point of view is questionable. In my opinion Truman action(s) is directly in crimes against humanity zone( killing civilians) Very strange logical arguments like they strarted it first and it will save a lot of lives in future....
But what done is done. I (as an American ) am sometimes ashamed looking at idiots who are proclaming that we live in the best country in the world! It is good for internal propaganda, but when they declare it outside the country .... LOL:rotfl:
Why we think that our democracy standards are the best? Now we are ordering serbs to cut part of its country!!! Because it is in their best interests - it is easier to manage in smaller country!!!
America is the most beautiful and just a little bit shameless. Who will control the controllers?
PS
"Comparing to Europe USA have a some lack of culture. Comparing to USA Europe has a lack of civilization."German engineer visiting USA in 1930s.

Put it like this. How many Americans died in the invasion of Japan? Thats what it's worth.

[bradclark1]

Originally Posted by Letum

You can not save lives by boming people!

You can save lives by not bombing people and not invadeing Japan!

You save your peoples lives by bombing them.

[Von Tonner]

[quote I (as an American ) am ashamed looking at idiots who are proclaming that we live in the best country in the world! It is good for internal propaganda, but when they declare it outside the country .... LOL:rotfl:
[/quote]

I wonder why your country is the only country in the world that has a lotto on a green card? Why also, are there millions amd millions of people who would give their life (boat people, Mexicans etc, etc) to have a life in the USA. Do not take what you have for granted, do you want to exchange citizenship with a Zimbabwean? Be thankful for what you have got.

[w-subcommander]

Originally Posted by bradclark1

Put it like this. How many Americans died in the invasion of Japan? Thats what it's worth.

My point is what done is done. But Truman belongs to jail. It coul be his price for saving Americans lives and killing civilians. He had my respect as a greatest leader if he went to jail by his own will.

[ASWnut101]

My god. I come back from vacation (a short 4 day break), and this crap is still around?

Originally Posted by w-subcommander

According novadays researches ( check History International) "your" point of view is questionable.

Ok. How?

In my opinion Truman action(s) is directly in crimes against humanity zone( killing civilians in mass numbers).

Good god. Crimes agianst humanity? About 36,000,000 (That's 36 MILLION) civilians in the allied countries had died by the end of the war. 36 million. Yet you go on about Truman commiting crimes against humanity?

Let me give you a little course:

In total, about 62 Million people died in the war. According to wikipedia's estimates,

-The allied side (Stalin, Roosevelt, Churchill, Kai-shek, and de Gaulle) had ~50 million total dead, with 14 million going to military forces, and the other 36 million going to the civilian death count.

-The axis side (Hitler, Mussolini, and Hirohito) had ~ 12 million dead, with 8 million going to military units and 4 million to the civilian count.

Now, with those numbers, a ratio can be made between the amount of total civilian deaths (both sides) to the amount of military deaths. The numbers?

22 million troops dead
40 million civilians dead
or,
35.48% military
64.52% civilian


Do you not think that it was in Truman's best intrests to bring the war to a close as quickly as possible? What would you have preferred? Millions more dead?

I (as an American ) am ashamed looking at idiots who are proclaming that we live in the best country in the world! It is good for internal propaganda, but when they declare it outside the country .... LOL

You (as an American) are pathetic. Do you mind me stabbing an American flag on a sharpened pole through your heart and pinning you to the ground?

"Comparing to Europe USA have a some lack of culture. Comparing to USA Europe as a lack of civilization."German engineer visiting USA in 1930s.

In a country entirely made up of people who trace their ancestory back to tens, if not over a hundred, foreign countries is not a "lack of culture." Compare the cultures of the people in any European country and I can guarentee that the United States of America is more diverse.



I can't belive I even bothered to post here.

[w-subcommander]

Originally Posted by Von Tonner

[quote I (as an American ) am ashamed looking at idiots who are proclaming that we live in the best country in the world! It is good for internal propaganda, but when they declare it outside the country .... LOL:rotfl:

I wonder why your country is the only country in the world that has a lotto on a green card? Why also, are there millions amd millions of people who would give their life (boat people, Mexicans etc, etc) to have a life in the USA. Do not take what you have for granted, do you want to exchange citizenship with a Zimbabwean? Be thankful for what you have got.[/quote]

I m grateful to America for everything it done for me. It s a wonderful country with wonderfull people. I ll protect it against any enemy that will invide. But it is not the BEST in the world!!!!!!!!!!! It has its good side and bad side! Patriotism is to love the country with all its best and worse stuff. And to be patriot doesnt mean to be blind or have hearing problems. Did you ever read Patriotic Act?
And I quote myself:
My point is what done is done. But Truman belongs to jail. It coul be his price for saving Americans lives and killing civilians. He had my respect as a greatest leader if he went to jail by his own will.

BEST can mean:
1) is Perfection /or
2) is most outstanding or excellent